| Author | Messages | |
umery@xxxx.yyy
 | | 11/13/2005 1:38 AM |
| Hello All!
I have researched this question quite a bit, but have not found a solid
answer as to why or how this would be done.
I am doing a disaster recovery test on VMs, to eliminate the part of
'dissimilar hardware' or to simulate 'Identical hardware' in real life
scenario. But I am running into some trouble while doing this, and hope that
some of you can help me out here.
Here is what I have:
A single DC that holds all FSMO roles.
I am using ntbackup to take only System State backup of the good DC.
Here is what I do to restore:
Got a freshly installed 2003 standalone server.
Hooked it into a hub to get network connectivity.
Give it the same ip as my good DC
In normal mode, while logged in as local admin, ran ntbackup, and restored
the file created from orginial DC with defaults. and restarted.
In normal mode, it gives an error 0xc000018e, and says to restart in DSRM.
Upon rebooting in DSRM, DC asks to activate windows, and after passing that,
when I ran ntdsutil, it does not pass file integrity.
Upon closer inspection, in Windows\NTDS, I have only ntds.dit and one log
file, when originally I am supposed to have more than that just two files.
--
Now I can't boot up into the normal mode, and I tried to do a restore second
time while being in DSRM, but that didn't help either.
I am thinking to blow away this copy and reinstall again and do ntbackup
again, but should I do the restore twice before rebooting?
I read in the list archives that while restoring, do restore to original
location once and second time to an alternate location. What is that about?
Also, would doing a back up of System State AND the whole C Drive help?
Thanks a lot in advance!
... you don't know what you've got 'till it's gone..
- Joni Mitchell
List info : http://www.activedir.org/List.aspx
List FAQ : http://www.activedir.org/ListFAQ.aspx
List archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/activedir%40mail.activedir.org/ | | | |
| ZJORZ
Posts:133
| | 11/13/2005 2:53 AM |
| Cheers,
Jorge
________________________________
From: ActiveDir-owner@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx on behalf of Umer Y.
Sent: Sun 11/13/2005 2:36 AM
To: ActiveDir@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: [ActiveDir] Restore twice in Disaster Recovery?
Hello All!
I have researched this question quite a bit, but have not found a solid
answer as to why or how this would be done.
I am doing a disaster recovery test on VMs, to eliminate the part of
'dissimilar hardware' or to simulate 'Identical hardware' in real life
scenario. But I am running into some trouble while doing this, and hope that
some of you can help me out here.
Here is what I have:
A single DC that holds all FSMO roles.
I am using ntbackup to take only System State backup of the good DC.
Here is what I do to restore:
Got a freshly installed 2003 standalone server.
Hooked it into a hub to get network connectivity.
Give it the same ip as my good DC
In normal mode, while logged in as local admin, ran ntbackup, and restored
the file created from orginial DC with defaults. and restarted.
In normal mode, it gives an error 0xc000018e, and says to restart in DSRM.
Upon rebooting in DSRM, DC asks to activate windows, and after passing that,
when I ran ntdsutil, it does not pass file integrity.
Upon closer inspection, in Windows\NTDS, I have only ntds.dit and one log
file, when originally I am supposed to have more than that just two files.
--
Now I can't boot up into the normal mode, and I tried to do a restore second
time while being in DSRM, but that didn't help either.
I am thinking to blow away this copy and reinstall again and do ntbackup
again, but should I do the restore twice before rebooting?
I read in the list archives that while restoring, do restore to original
location once and second time to an alternate location. What is that about?
Also, would doing a back up of System State AND the whole C Drive help?
Thanks a lot in advance!
... you don't know what you've got 'till it's gone..
- Joni Mitchell
List info : http://www.activedir.org/List.aspx
List FAQ : http://www.activedir.org/ListFAQ.aspx
List archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/activedir%40mail.activedir.org/
This e-mail and any attachment is for authorised use by the intended recipient(s) only. It may contain proprietary material, confidential information and/or be subject to legal privilege. It should not be copied, disclosed to, retained or used by, any other party. If you are not an intended recipient then please promptly delete this e-mail and any attachment and all copies and inform the sender. Thank you.
> | | | |
| umery@xxxx.yyy
| | 11/13/2005 3:21 AM |
| Thanks a bunch Joge.
I am doing W2K3 restore. I didn't know about the bit about SYSVOL restore,
but I assumed it would be backed up with System State. I am going to try to
do System State AND the Windows Directory today, and see how that goes, as
doing just system state hasn't gone well so far.
Also, one thing that I noticed is that, when doing restore using ntbackup,
when I select the file -> System state. The five items show up in the right
pane with their correct modified date, but Active Directory shows up without
a date, hence blank. Am I correct to assume that it is because the host
machine is not a DC, that is why no presence of AD modified date while
restoring?
... you don't know what you've got 'till it's gone..
- Joni Mitchell
From: "Almeida Pinto, Jorge de"
Reply-To: ActiveDir@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
To:
Subject: RE: [ActiveDir] Restore twice in Disaster Recovery?
Date: Sun, 13 Nov 2005 03:51:10 +0100
Hi,
You have not told us if you are using W2K or W2K3 AD... There is a tiny
difference between the two...
When doing a bare metal restore I always advise to restore a backup of the
System Disk (in MS terms it is called the boot volume, and for both it means
the volume with the WIndows/Winnt directory) AND the System State...
In W2K3 restoring the system state also rebuilds the SYSVOL structure, no
matter the location of it... When backing up the system state on a w2k DC,
you should also backup the SYSVOL structure with it. Why?
The SYSVOL structure is like:
SYSVOL
Here is what I do to restore:
Got a freshly installed 2003 standalone server.
Hooked it into a hub to get network connectivity.
Give it the same ip as my good DC
In normal mode, while logged in as local admin, ran ntbackup, and restored
the file created from orginial DC with defaults. and restarted.
In normal mode, it gives an error 0xc000018e, and says to restart in DSRM.
Upon rebooting in DSRM, DC asks to activate windows, and after passing that,
when I ran ntdsutil, it does not pass file integrity.
Upon closer inspection, in Windows\NTDS, I have only ntds.dit and one log
file, when originally I am supposed to have more than that just two files.
--
Now I can't boot up into the normal mode, and I tried to do a restore second
time while being in DSRM, but that didn't help either.
I am thinking to blow away this copy and reinstall again and do ntbackup
again, but should I do the restore twice before rebooting?
I read in the list archives that while restoring, do restore to original
location once and second time to an alternate location. What is that about?
Also, would doing a back up of System State AND the whole C Drive help?
Thanks a lot in advance!
... you don't know what you've got 'till it's gone..
- Joni Mitchell
List info : http://www.activedir.org/List.aspx
List FAQ : http://www.activedir.org/ListFAQ.aspx
List archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/activedir%40mail.activedir.org/
This e-mail and any attachment is for authorised use by the intended
recipient(s) only. It may contain proprietary material, confidential
information and/or be subject to legal privilege. It should not be copied,
disclosed to, retained or used by, any other party. If you are not an
intended recipient then please promptly delete this e-mail and any
attachment and all copies and inform the sender. Thank you.
>
List info : http://www.activedir.org/List.aspx
List FAQ : http://www.activedir.org/ListFAQ.aspx
List archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/activedir%40mail.activedir.org/ | | | |
| ZJORZ
Posts:133
| | 11/13/2005 4:01 AM |
| I did not say "System State" and "Windows Directory"
I said: "System State" and "System Disk / Boot Volume" (the latter is the volume that CONTAINS the Windows directory)
Jorge
________________________________
From: ActiveDir-owner@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx on behalf of Umer Y.
Sent: Sun 11/13/2005 4:20 PM
To: ActiveDir@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: RE: [ActiveDir] Restore twice in Disaster Recovery?
Thanks a bunch Joge.
I am doing W2K3 restore. I didn't know about the bit about SYSVOL restore,
but I assumed it would be backed up with System State. I am going to try to
do System State AND the Windows Directory today, and see how that goes, as
doing just system state hasn't gone well so far.
Also, one thing that I noticed is that, when doing restore using ntbackup,
when I select the file -> System state. The five items show up in the right
pane with their correct modified date, but Active Directory shows up without
a date, hence blank. Am I correct to assume that it is because the host
machine is not a DC, that is why no presence of AD modified date while
restoring?
... you don't know what you've got 'till it's gone..
- Joni Mitchell
From: "Almeida Pinto, Jorge de"
Reply-To: ActiveDir@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
To:
Subject: RE: [ActiveDir] Restore twice in Disaster Recovery?
Date: Sun, 13 Nov 2005 03:51:10 +0100
Hi,
You have not told us if you are using W2K or W2K3 AD... There is a tiny
difference between the two...
When doing a bare metal restore I always advise to restore a backup of the
System Disk (in MS terms it is called the boot volume, and for both it means
the volume with the WIndows/Winnt directory) AND the System State...
In W2K3 restoring the system state also rebuilds the SYSVOL structure, no
matter the location of it... When backing up the system state on a w2k DC,
you should also backup the SYSVOL structure with it. Why?
The SYSVOL structure is like:
SYSVOL
Here is what I do to restore:
Got a freshly installed 2003 standalone server.
Hooked it into a hub to get network connectivity.
Give it the same ip as my good DC
In normal mode, while logged in as local admin, ran ntbackup, and restored
the file created from orginial DC with defaults. and restarted.
In normal mode, it gives an error 0xc000018e, and says to restart in DSRM.
Upon rebooting in DSRM, DC asks to activate windows, and after passing that,
when I ran ntdsutil, it does not pass file integrity.
Upon closer inspection, in Windows\NTDS, I have only ntds.dit and one log
file, when originally I am supposed to have more than that just two files.
--
Now I can't boot up into the normal mode, and I tried to do a restore second
time while being in DSRM, but that didn't help either.
I am thinking to blow away this copy and reinstall again and do ntbackup
again, but should I do the restore twice before rebooting?
I read in the list archives that while restoring, do restore to original
location once and second time to an alternate location. What is that about?
Also, would doing a back up of System State AND the whole C Drive help?
Thanks a lot in advance!
... you don't know what you've got 'till it's gone..
- Joni Mitchell
List info : http://www.activedir.org/List.aspx
List FAQ : http://www.activedir.org/ListFAQ.aspx
List archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/activedir%40mail.activedir.org/
This e-mail and any attachment is for authorised use by the intended
recipient(s) only. It may contain proprietary material, confidential
information and/or be subject to legal privilege. It should not be copied,
disclosed to, retained or used by, any other party. If you are not an
intended recipient then please promptly delete this e-mail and any
attachment and all copies and inform the sender. Thank you.
>
List info : http://www.activedir.org/List.aspx
List FAQ : http://www.activedir.org/ListFAQ.aspx
List archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/activedir%40mail.activedir.org/
List info : http://www.activedir.org/List.aspx
List FAQ : http://www.activedir.org/ListFAQ.aspx
List archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/activedir%40mail.activedir.org/ | | | |
| umery@xxxx.yyy
| | 11/13/2005 8:40 AM |
| Ah. I apologize.
So, there should not be a need to do restore twice?
... you don't know what you've got 'till it's gone..
- Joni Mitchell
From: "Almeida Pinto, Jorge de"
Reply-To: ActiveDir@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
To: ,
Subject: RE: [ActiveDir] Restore twice in Disaster Recovery?
Date: Sun, 13 Nov 2005 16:59:03 +0100
I did not say "System State" and "Windows Directory"
I said: "System State" and "System Disk / Boot Volume" (the latter is the
volume that CONTAINS the Windows directory)
Jorge
________________________________
From: ActiveDir-owner@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx on behalf of Umer Y.
Sent: Sun 11/13/2005 4:20 PM
To: ActiveDir@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: RE: [ActiveDir] Restore twice in Disaster Recovery?
Thanks a bunch Joge.
I am doing W2K3 restore. I didn't know about the bit about SYSVOL restore,
but I assumed it would be backed up with System State. I am going to try to
do System State AND the Windows Directory today, and see how that goes, as
doing just system state hasn't gone well so far.
Also, one thing that I noticed is that, when doing restore using ntbackup,
when I select the file -> System state. The five items show up in the right
pane with their correct modified date, but Active Directory shows up without
a date, hence blank. Am I correct to assume that it is because the host
machine is not a DC, that is why no presence of AD modified date while
restoring?
... you don't know what you've got 'till it's gone..
- Joni Mitchell
From: "Almeida Pinto, Jorge de"
Reply-To: ActiveDir@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
To:
Subject: RE: [ActiveDir] Restore twice in Disaster Recovery?
Date: Sun, 13 Nov 2005 03:51:10 +0100
Hi,
You have not told us if you are using W2K or W2K3 AD... There is a tiny
difference between the two...
When doing a bare metal restore I always advise to restore a backup of the
System Disk (in MS terms it is called the boot volume, and for both it means
the volume with the WIndows/Winnt directory) AND the System State...
In W2K3 restoring the system state also rebuilds the SYSVOL structure, no
matter the location of it... When backing up the system state on a w2k DC,
you should also backup the SYSVOL structure with it. Why?
The SYSVOL structure is like:
SYSVOL
Here is what I do to restore:
Got a freshly installed 2003 standalone server.
Hooked it into a hub to get network connectivity.
Give it the same ip as my good DC
In normal mode, while logged in as local admin, ran ntbackup, and restored
the file created from orginial DC with defaults. and restarted.
In normal mode, it gives an error 0xc000018e, and says to restart in DSRM.
Upon rebooting in DSRM, DC asks to activate windows, and after passing that,
when I ran ntdsutil, it does not pass file integrity.
Upon closer inspection, in Windows\NTDS, I have only ntds.dit and one log
file, when originally I am supposed to have more than that just two files.
--
Now I can't boot up into the normal mode, and I tried to do a restore second
time while being in DSRM, but that didn't help either.
I am thinking to blow away this copy and reinstall again and do ntbackup
again, but should I do the restore twice before rebooting?
I read in the list archives that while restoring, do restore to original
location once and second time to an alternate location. What is that about?
Also, would doing a back up of System State AND the whole C Drive help?
Thanks a lot in advance!
... you don't know what you've got 'till it's gone..
- Joni Mitchell
List info : http://www.activedir.org/List.aspx
List FAQ : http://www.activedir.org/ListFAQ.aspx
List archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/activedir%40mail.activedir.org/
This e-mail and any attachment is for authorised use by the intended
recipient(s) only. It may contain proprietary material, confidential
information and/or be subject to legal privilege. It should not be copied,
disclosed to, retained or used by, any other party. If you are not an
intended recipient then please promptly delete this e-mail and any
attachment and all copies and inform the sender. Thank you.
>
List info : http://www.activedir.org/List.aspx
List FAQ : http://www.activedir.org/ListFAQ.aspx
List archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/activedir%40mail.activedir.org/
List info : http://www.activedir.org/List.aspx
List FAQ : http://www.activedir.org/ListFAQ.aspx
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List archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/activedir%40mail.activedir.org/ | | | |
| AD000001335
Posts:0
| | 11/13/2005 11:40 AM |
| Those are two different things, but you should be able to restore both in
one job.
Ed Crowley MCSE+Internet MVP
Freelance E-Mail Philosopher
Protecting the world from PSTs and Bricked Backups!T
-----Original Message-----
From: ActiveDir-owner@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
[mailto:ActiveDir-owner@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Umer Y.
Sent: Sunday, November 13, 2005 12:39 PM
To: ActiveDir@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: RE: [ActiveDir] Restore twice in Disaster Recovery?
Ah. I apologize.
So, there should not be a need to do restore twice?
... you don't know what you've got 'till it's gone..
- Joni Mitchell
From: "Almeida Pinto, Jorge de"
Reply-To: ActiveDir@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
To: ,
Subject: RE: [ActiveDir] Restore twice in Disaster Recovery?
Date: Sun, 13 Nov 2005 16:59:03 +0100
I did not say "System State" and "Windows Directory"
I said: "System State" and "System Disk / Boot Volume" (the latter is the
volume that CONTAINS the Windows directory)
Jorge
________________________________
From: ActiveDir-owner@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx on behalf of Umer Y.
Sent: Sun 11/13/2005 4:20 PM
To: ActiveDir@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: RE: [ActiveDir] Restore twice in Disaster Recovery?
Thanks a bunch Joge.
I am doing W2K3 restore. I didn't know about the bit about SYSVOL restore,
but I assumed it would be backed up with System State. I am going to try to
do System State AND the Windows Directory today, and see how that goes, as
doing just system state hasn't gone well so far.
Also, one thing that I noticed is that, when doing restore using ntbackup,
when I select the file -> System state. The five items show up in the right
pane with their correct modified date, but Active Directory shows up without
a date, hence blank. Am I correct to assume that it is because the host
machine is not a DC, that is why no presence of AD modified date while
restoring?
... you don't know what you've got 'till it's gone..
- Joni Mitchell
From: "Almeida Pinto, Jorge de"
Reply-To: ActiveDir@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
To:
Subject: RE: [ActiveDir] Restore twice in Disaster Recovery?
Date: Sun, 13 Nov 2005 03:51:10 +0100
Hi,
You have not told us if you are using W2K or W2K3 AD... There is a tiny
difference between the two...
When doing a bare metal restore I always advise to restore a backup of the
System Disk (in MS terms it is called the boot volume, and for both it means
the volume with the WIndows/Winnt directory) AND the System State...
In W2K3 restoring the system state also rebuilds the SYSVOL structure, no
matter the location of it... When backing up the system state on a w2k DC,
you should also backup the SYSVOL structure with it. Why?
The SYSVOL structure is like:
SYSVOL
Here is what I do to restore:
Got a freshly installed 2003 standalone server.
Hooked it into a hub to get network connectivity.
Give it the same ip as my good DC
In normal mode, while logged in as local admin, ran ntbackup, and restored
the file created from orginial DC with defaults. and restarted.
In normal mode, it gives an error 0xc000018e, and says to restart in DSRM.
Upon rebooting in DSRM, DC asks to activate windows, and after passing that,
when I ran ntdsutil, it does not pass file integrity.
Upon closer inspection, in Windows\NTDS, I have only ntds.dit and one log
file, when originally I am supposed to have more than that just two files.
--
Now I can't boot up into the normal mode, and I tried to do a restore second
time while being in DSRM, but that didn't help either.
I am thinking to blow away this copy and reinstall again and do ntbackup
again, but should I do the restore twice before rebooting?
I read in the list archives that while restoring, do restore to original
location once and second time to an alternate location. What is that about?
Also, would doing a back up of System State AND the whole C Drive help?
Thanks a lot in advance!
... you don't know what you've got 'till it's gone..
- Joni Mitchell
List info : http://www.activedir.org/List.aspx
List FAQ : http://www.activedir.org/ListFAQ.aspx
List archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/activedir%40mail.activedir.org/
This e-mail and any attachment is for authorised use by the intended
recipient(s) only. It may contain proprietary material, confidential
information and/or be subject to legal privilege. It should not be copied,
disclosed to, retained or used by, any other party. If you are not an
intended recipient then please promptly delete this e-mail and any
attachment and all copies and inform the sender. Thank you.
>
List info : http://www.activedir.org/List.aspx
List FAQ : http://www.activedir.org/ListFAQ.aspx
List archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/activedir%40mail.activedir.org/
List info : http://www.activedir.org/List.aspx
List FAQ : http://www.activedir.org/ListFAQ.aspx
List archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/activedir%40mail.activedir.org/
List info : http://www.activedir.org/List.aspx
List FAQ : http://www.activedir.org/ListFAQ.aspx
List archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/activedir%40mail.activedir.org/
List info : http://www.activedir.org/List.aspx
List FAQ : http://www.activedir.org/ListFAQ.aspx
List archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/activedir%40mail.activedir.org/ | | | |
| umery@xxxx.yyy
| | 11/14/2005 3:04 AM |
| Gracias Jose, but I have actually gone through that article and other MS
ones before speaking up here. The reason I was confused was that someone
mentioned doing restoring twice once to original location and once to an
alternate in the list, while I was researching the issue. I wish I had saved
the reference.
But anyway, thanks for the link. :)
... you don't know what you've got 'till it's gone..
- Joni Mitchell
From: "Jose Medeiros"
Reply-To: ActiveDir@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
To:
Subject: Re: [ActiveDir] Restore twice in Disaster Recovery?
Date: Sun, 13 Nov 2005 16:38:36 -0800
Hi Ed and Umer,
I hope you do not mind if I butt in. It may just be easier to have him look
at the online doc's on how to do such a procedure at:
http://www.microsoft.com/technet/prodtechnol/windowsserver2003/library/Operations/b3d615b9-2bc9-4a4f-89cb-7697f94d527d.mspx
Also there are several good books on the subject, one such book is Active
Directory, 2nd Edition by Robbie Allen, Alistair G. Lowe-Norris by O'Reilly
. It's worth the investment.
Good luck in your restore!
Jose Medeiros
MCP+I, MCSE, NT4 MCT
www.ntea.net
www.sfntug.org
www.tvnug.org
------------------------------------------------------
----- Original Message ----- From: "Ed Crowley [MVP]"
To:
Sent: Sunday, November 13, 2005 3:37 PM
Subject: RE: [ActiveDir] Restore twice in Disaster Recovery?
Those are two different things, but you should be able to restore both in
one job.
Ed Crowley MCSE+Internet MVP
Freelance E-Mail Philosopher
Protecting the world from PSTs and Bricked Backups!T
-----Original Message-----
From: ActiveDir-owner@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
[mailto:ActiveDir-owner@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Umer Y.
Sent: Sunday, November 13, 2005 12:39 PM
To: ActiveDir@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: RE: [ActiveDir] Restore twice in Disaster Recovery?
Ah. I apologize.
So, there should not be a need to do restore twice?
... you don't know what you've got 'till it's gone..
- Joni Mitchell
From: "Almeida Pinto, Jorge de"
Reply-To: ActiveDir@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
To: ,
Subject: RE: [ActiveDir] Restore twice in Disaster Recovery?
Date: Sun, 13 Nov 2005 16:59:03 +0100
I did not say "System State" and "Windows Directory"
I said: "System State" and "System Disk / Boot Volume" (the latter is the
volume that CONTAINS the Windows directory)
Jorge
________________________________
From: ActiveDir-owner@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx on behalf of Umer Y.
Sent: Sun 11/13/2005 4:20 PM
To: ActiveDir@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: RE: [ActiveDir] Restore twice in Disaster Recovery?
Thanks a bunch Joge.
I am doing W2K3 restore. I didn't know about the bit about SYSVOL restore,
but I assumed it would be backed up with System State. I am going to try to
do System State AND the Windows Directory today, and see how that goes, as
doing just system state hasn't gone well so far.
Also, one thing that I noticed is that, when doing restore using ntbackup,
when I select the file -> System state. The five items show up in the right
pane with their correct modified date, but Active Directory shows up
without
a date, hence blank. Am I correct to assume that it is because the host
machine is not a DC, that is why no presence of AD modified date while
restoring?
... you don't know what you've got 'till it's gone..
- Joni Mitchell
From: "Almeida Pinto, Jorge de"
Reply-To: ActiveDir@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
To:
Subject: RE: [ActiveDir] Restore twice in Disaster Recovery?
Date: Sun, 13 Nov 2005 03:51:10 +0100
Hi,
You have not told us if you are using W2K or W2K3 AD... There is a tiny
difference between the two...
When doing a bare metal restore I always advise to restore a backup of the
System Disk (in MS terms it is called the boot volume, and for both it
means
the volume with the WIndows/Winnt directory) AND the System State...
In W2K3 restoring the system state also rebuilds the SYSVOL structure, no
matter the location of it... When backing up the system state on a w2k DC,
you should also backup the SYSVOL structure with it. Why?
The SYSVOL structure is like:
SYSVOL
Here is what I do to restore:
Got a freshly installed 2003 standalone server.
Hooked it into a hub to get network connectivity.
Give it the same ip as my good DC
In normal mode, while logged in as local admin, ran ntbackup, and restored
the file created from orginial DC with defaults. and restarted.
In normal mode, it gives an error 0xc000018e, and says to restart in DSRM.
Upon rebooting in DSRM, DC asks to activate windows, and after passing
that,
when I ran ntdsutil, it does not pass file integrity.
Upon closer inspection, in Windows\NTDS, I have only ntds.dit and one log
file, when originally I am supposed to have more than that just two files.
--
Now I can't boot up into the normal mode, and I tried to do a restore
second
time while being in DSRM, but that didn't help either.
I am thinking to blow away this copy and reinstall again and do ntbackup
again, but should I do the restore twice before rebooting?
I read in the list archives that while restoring, do restore to original
location once and second time to an alternate location. What is that about?
Also, would doing a back up of System State AND the whole C Drive help?
Thanks a lot in advance!
... you don't know what you've got 'till it's gone..
- Joni Mitchell
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>
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| jmedeiros@xxxx.yyy
| | 11/14/2005 5:23 AM |
| In Portuguese it is Obrigado, :-). Hmm.. sounds like some one is giving you the wrong information or there is some miscommunication. What he may be referring to is to do a system state backup to local disk, then do a back up of the file to tape. That way if you do have to perform an Authorative restore, it is much faster restoring from the file locally. This may be where the confusion is occurring.
Sincerely,
Jose Medeiros
ADP | National Account Services
ProBusiness Division | Information Services
925.737.7967 | 408-449-6621 CELL
-----Original Message-----
From: ActiveDir-owner@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
[mailto:ActiveDir-owner@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx]On Behalf Of Umer Y.
Sent: Sunday, November 13, 2005 7:03 PM
To: ActiveDir@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: Re: [ActiveDir] Restore twice in Disaster Recovery?
Gracias Jose, but I have actually gone through that article and other MS
ones before speaking up here. The reason I was confused was that someone
mentioned doing restoring twice once to original location and once to an
alternate in the list, while I was researching the issue. I wish I had saved
the reference.
But anyway, thanks for the link. :)
... you don't know what you've got 'till it's gone..
- Joni Mitchell
From: "Jose Medeiros"
Reply-To: ActiveDir@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
To:
Subject: Re: [ActiveDir] Restore twice in Disaster Recovery?
Date: Sun, 13 Nov 2005 16:38:36 -0800
Hi Ed and Umer,
I hope you do not mind if I butt in. It may just be easier to have him look
at the online doc's on how to do such a procedure at:
http://www.microsoft.com/technet/prodtechnol/windowsserver2003/library/Operations/b3d615b9-2bc9-4a4f-89cb-7697f94d527d.mspx
Also there are several good books on the subject, one such book is Active
Directory, 2nd Edition by Robbie Allen, Alistair G. Lowe-Norris by O'Reilly
. It's worth the investment.
Good luck in your restore!
Jose Medeiros
MCP+I, MCSE, NT4 MCT
www.ntea.net
www.sfntug.org
www.tvnug.org
------------------------------------------------------
----- Original Message ----- From: "Ed Crowley [MVP]"
To:
Sent: Sunday, November 13, 2005 3:37 PM
Subject: RE: [ActiveDir] Restore twice in Disaster Recovery?
>Those are two different things, but you should be able to restore both in
>one job.
>
>Ed Crowley MCSE+Internet MVP
>Freelance E-Mail Philosopher
>Protecting the world from PSTs and Bricked Backups!T
>
>-----Original Message-----
>From: ActiveDir-owner@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
>[mailto:ActiveDir-owner@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Umer Y.
>Sent: Sunday, November 13, 2005 12:39 PM
>To: ActiveDir@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
>Subject: RE: [ActiveDir] Restore twice in Disaster Recovery?
>
>Ah. I apologize.
>
>So, there should not be a need to do restore twice?
>
>
>... you don't know what you've got 'till it's gone..
>
>- Joni Mitchell
>
>
>From: "Almeida Pinto, Jorge de"
>Reply-To: ActiveDir@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
>To: ,
>Subject: RE: [ActiveDir] Restore twice in Disaster Recovery?
>Date: Sun, 13 Nov 2005 16:59:03 +0100
>
>I did not say "System State" and "Windows Directory"
>
>I said: "System State" and "System Disk / Boot Volume" (the latter is the
>volume that CONTAINS the Windows directory)
>
>Jorge
>
>________________________________
>
>From: ActiveDir-owner@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx on behalf of Umer Y.
>Sent: Sun 11/13/2005 4:20 PM
>To: ActiveDir@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
>Subject: RE: [ActiveDir] Restore twice in Disaster Recovery?
>
>
>
>Thanks a bunch Joge.
>
>I am doing W2K3 restore. I didn't know about the bit about SYSVOL restore,
>but I assumed it would be backed up with System State. I am going to try to
>do System State AND the Windows Directory today, and see how that goes, as
>doing just system state hasn't gone well so far.
>
>Also, one thing that I noticed is that, when doing restore using ntbackup,
>when I select the file -> System state. The five items show up in the right
>pane with their correct modified date, but Active Directory shows up
>without
>a date, hence blank. Am I correct to assume that it is because the host
>machine is not a DC, that is why no presence of AD modified date while
>restoring?
>
>
>
>
>... you don't know what you've got 'till it's gone..
>
>- Joni Mitchell
>
>
>From: "Almeida Pinto, Jorge de"
>Reply-To: ActiveDir@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
>To:
>Subject: RE: [ActiveDir] Restore twice in Disaster Recovery?
>Date: Sun, 13 Nov 2005 03:51:10 +0100
>
>Hi,
>
>You have not told us if you are using W2K or W2K3 AD... There is a tiny
>difference between the two...
>When doing a bare metal restore I always advise to restore a backup of the
>System Disk (in MS terms it is called the boot volume, and for both it
>means
>the volume with the WIndows/Winnt directory) AND the System State...
>In W2K3 restoring the system state also rebuilds the SYSVOL structure, no
>matter the location of it... When backing up the system state on a w2k DC,
>you should also backup the SYSVOL structure with it. Why?
>
>The SYSVOL structure is like:
>SYSVOL DOMAIN STAGING DOMAIN STAGING AREAS SYSVOL
>In W2K3 when restoring the system state the structure mentioned above will
>be restored correctly.
>In W2K when restorin the system state the structure mentioned above will
>NOT
>be restored correctly! In fact it will only restore "A". It will not
>restore
>"B".
>So in W2K3 it suffices to select the system state to also restore the
>SYSVOL
>structure In W2K to restore the SYSVOL structure I advise to select at
>backup the System State AND the SYSVOL structure starting at "S"
>So if you are using the default AD/SYSVOL paths and if you restore the
>system disk and the system state everything will be OK as the sysvol
>structure is backupped with the system disk.
>If you have AD/SYSVOL on other volumes, for W2K, I advise to backup at
>least
>the System Disk, the System State and additionally the SYSVOL structure
>starting at "S". This is especially important when doing a bare metal
>restore.
>IMHO, for a DC you should always at least backup the system disk and the
>system state, and if it is a w2k DC also backup the FULL SYSVOL structure.
>
>Remember, if you are restoring the first DC in a certain domain you need to
>restore AD non-auth. and SYSVOL auth. (for the latter in other words as
>PRIMARY)
>
>Hope this helps you!
>
>Cheers,
>Jorge
>
>________________________________
>
>From: ActiveDir-owner@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx on behalf of Umer Y.
>Sent: Sun 11/13/2005 2:36 AM
>To: ActiveDir@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
>Subject: [ActiveDir] Restore twice in Disaster Recovery?
>
>
>
>Hello All!
>
>I have researched this question quite a bit, but have not found a solid
>answer as to why or how this would be done.
>
>I am doing a disaster recovery test on VMs, to eliminate the part of
>'dissimilar hardware' or to simulate 'Identical hardware' in real life
>scenario. But I am running into some trouble while doing this, and hope
>that
>some of you can help me out here.
>
>Here is what I have:
>
>A single DC that holds all FSMO roles.
>I am using ntbackup to take only System State backup of the good DC. paths default>
>
>Here is what I do to restore:
>
>Got a freshly installed 2003 standalone server.
>Hooked it into a hub to get network connectivity.
>Give it the same ip as my good DC
>In normal mode, while logged in as local admin, ran ntbackup, and restored
>the file created from orginial DC with defaults. create junctions> and restarted.
>In normal mode, it gives an error 0xc000018e, and says to restart in DSRM.
>Upon rebooting in DSRM, DC asks to activate windows, and after passing
>that,
>when I ran ntdsutil, it does not pass file integrity.
>Upon closer inspection, in Windows\NTDS, I have only ntds.dit and one log
>file, when originally I am supposed to have more than that just two files.
>
>--
>
>Now I can't boot up into the normal mode, and I tried to do a restore
>second
>time while being in DSRM, but that didn't help either.
>
>I am thinking to blow away this copy and reinstall again and do ntbackup
>again, but should I do the restore twice before rebooting?
>
>I read in the list archives that while restoring, do restore to original
>location once and second time to an alternate location. What is that about?
>
>
>Also, would doing a back up of System State AND the whole C Drive help?
>
>
>Thanks a lot in advance!
>
>
>
>
>... you don't know what you've got 'till it's gone..
>
>- Joni Mitchell
>
>
>List info : http://www.activedir.org/List.aspx
>List FAQ : http://www.activedir.org/ListFAQ.aspx
>List archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/activedir%40mail.activedir.org/
>
>
>
>
>This e-mail and any attachment is for authorised use by the intended
>recipient(s) only. It may contain proprietary material, confidential
>information and/or be subject to legal privilege. It should not be copied,
>disclosed to, retained or used by, any other party. If you are not an
>intended recipient then please promptly delete this e-mail and any
>attachment and all copies and inform the sender. Thank you.
>
>
>>
>
>
>List info : http://www.activedir.org/List.aspx
>List FAQ : http://www.activedir.org/ListFAQ.aspx
>List archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/activedir%40mail.activedir.org/
>
>
>List info : http://www.activedir.org/List.aspx
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>
>
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>
>
>List info : http://www.activedir.org/List.aspx
>List FAQ : http://www.activedir.org/ListFAQ.aspx
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>
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List archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/activedir%40mail.activedir.org/ | | | |
| josemedeiros
Posts:0
| | 11/14/2005 12:42 PM |
| Hi Ed and Umer,
I hope you do not mind if I butt in. It may just be easier to have him look
at the online doc's on how to do such a procedure at:
http://www.microsoft.com/technet/prodtechnol/windowsserver2003/library/Operations/b3d615b9-2bc9-4a4f-89cb-7697f94d527d.mspx
Also there are several good books on the subject, one such book is Active
Directory, 2nd Edition by Robbie Allen, Alistair G. Lowe-Norris by O'Reilly
. It's worth the investment.
Good luck in your restore!
Jose Medeiros
MCP+I, MCSE, NT4 MCT
www.ntea.net
www.sfntug.org
www.tvnug.org
------------------------------------------------------
----- Original Message -----
From: "Ed Crowley [MVP]"
To:
Sent: Sunday, November 13, 2005 3:37 PM
Subject: RE: [ActiveDir] Restore twice in Disaster Recovery?
Those are two different things, but you should be able to restore both in
one job.
Ed Crowley MCSE+Internet MVP
Freelance E-Mail Philosopher
Protecting the world from PSTs and Bricked Backups!T
-----Original Message-----
From: ActiveDir-owner@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
[mailto:ActiveDir-owner@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Umer Y.
Sent: Sunday, November 13, 2005 12:39 PM
To: ActiveDir@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: RE: [ActiveDir] Restore twice in Disaster Recovery?
Ah. I apologize.
So, there should not be a need to do restore twice?
... you don't know what you've got 'till it's gone..
- Joni Mitchell
From: "Almeida Pinto, Jorge de"
Reply-To: ActiveDir@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
To: ,
Subject: RE: [ActiveDir] Restore twice in Disaster Recovery?
Date: Sun, 13 Nov 2005 16:59:03 +0100
I did not say "System State" and "Windows Directory"
I said: "System State" and "System Disk / Boot Volume" (the latter is the
volume that CONTAINS the Windows directory)
Jorge
________________________________
From: ActiveDir-owner@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx on behalf of Umer Y.
Sent: Sun 11/13/2005 4:20 PM
To: ActiveDir@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: RE: [ActiveDir] Restore twice in Disaster Recovery?
Thanks a bunch Joge.
I am doing W2K3 restore. I didn't know about the bit about SYSVOL restore,
but I assumed it would be backed up with System State. I am going to try
to
do System State AND the Windows Directory today, and see how that goes, as
doing just system state hasn't gone well so far.
Also, one thing that I noticed is that, when doing restore using ntbackup,
when I select the file -> System state. The five items show up in the
right
pane with their correct modified date, but Active Directory shows up
without
a date, hence blank. Am I correct to assume that it is because the host
machine is not a DC, that is why no presence of AD modified date while
restoring?
... you don't know what you've got 'till it's gone..
- Joni Mitchell
From: "Almeida Pinto, Jorge de"
Reply-To: ActiveDir@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
To:
Subject: RE: [ActiveDir] Restore twice in Disaster Recovery?
Date: Sun, 13 Nov 2005 03:51:10 +0100
Hi,
You have not told us if you are using W2K or W2K3 AD... There is a tiny
difference between the two...
When doing a bare metal restore I always advise to restore a backup of the
System Disk (in MS terms it is called the boot volume, and for both it
means
the volume with the WIndows/Winnt directory) AND the System State...
In W2K3 restoring the system state also rebuilds the SYSVOL structure, no
matter the location of it... When backing up the system state on a w2k DC,
you should also backup the SYSVOL structure with it. Why?
The SYSVOL structure is like:
SYSVOL
Here is what I do to restore:
Got a freshly installed 2003 standalone server.
Hooked it into a hub to get network connectivity.
Give it the same ip as my good DC
In normal mode, while logged in as local admin, ran ntbackup, and restored
the file created from orginial DC with defaults. and restarted.
In normal mode, it gives an error 0xc000018e, and says to restart in DSRM.
Upon rebooting in DSRM, DC asks to activate windows, and after passing
that,
when I ran ntdsutil, it does not pass file integrity.
Upon closer inspection, in Windows\NTDS, I have only ntds.dit and one log
file, when originally I am supposed to have more than that just two files.
--
Now I can't boot up into the normal mode, and I tried to do a restore
second
time while being in DSRM, but that didn't help either.
I am thinking to blow away this copy and reinstall again and do ntbackup
again, but should I do the restore twice before rebooting?
I read in the list archives that while restoring, do restore to original
location once and second time to an alternate location. What is that
about?
Also, would doing a back up of System State AND the whole C Drive help?
Thanks a lot in advance!
... you don't know what you've got 'till it's gone..
- Joni Mitchell
List info : http://www.activedir.org/List.aspx
List FAQ : http://www.activedir.org/ListFAQ.aspx
List archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/activedir%40mail.activedir.org/
This e-mail and any attachment is for authorised use by the intended
recipient(s) only. It may contain proprietary material, confidential
information and/or be subject to legal privilege. It should not be copied,
disclosed to, retained or used by, any other party. If you are not an
intended recipient then please promptly delete this e-mail and any
attachment and all copies and inform the sender. Thank you.
>
List info : http://www.activedir.org/List.aspx
List FAQ : http://www.activedir.org/ListFAQ.aspx
List archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/activedir%40mail.activedir.org/
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List archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/activedir%40mail.activedir.org/ | | | |
| bdesmond
Posts:416
| | 11/14/2005 12:50 PM |
| The directions on technet are pretty good.
I understand if you are willing to wait a month, the third edition of that
book will be out and the royalties go towards the one oar'ed rowboat Robbie
promised joe a couple months ago.
Thanks,
Brian Desmond
brian@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
c - 312.731.3132
-----Original Message-----
From: ActiveDir-owner@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
[mailto:ActiveDir-owner@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Jose Medeiros
Sent: Sunday, November 13, 2005 7:39 PM
To: ActiveDir@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: Re: [ActiveDir] Restore twice in Disaster Recovery?
Hi Ed and Umer,
I hope you do not mind if I butt in. It may just be easier to have him look
at the online doc's on how to do such a procedure at:
http://www.microsoft.com/technet/prodtechnol/windowsserver2003/library/Opera
tions/b3d615b9-2bc9-4a4f-89cb-7697f94d527d.mspx
Also there are several good books on the subject, one such book is Active
Directory, 2nd Edition by Robbie Allen, Alistair G. Lowe-Norris by O'Reilly
. It's worth the investment.
Good luck in your restore!
Jose Medeiros
MCP+I, MCSE, NT4 MCT
www.ntea.net
www.sfntug.org
www.tvnug.org
------------------------------------------------------
----- Original Message -----
From: "Ed Crowley [MVP]"
To:
Sent: Sunday, November 13, 2005 3:37 PM
Subject: RE: [ActiveDir] Restore twice in Disaster Recovery?
> Those are two different things, but you should be able to restore both in
> one job.
>
> Ed Crowley MCSE+Internet MVP
> Freelance E-Mail Philosopher
> Protecting the world from PSTs and Bricked Backups!T
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: ActiveDir-owner@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
> [mailto:ActiveDir-owner@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Umer Y.
> Sent: Sunday, November 13, 2005 12:39 PM
> To: ActiveDir@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
> Subject: RE: [ActiveDir] Restore twice in Disaster Recovery?
>
> Ah. I apologize.
>
> So, there should not be a need to do restore twice?
>
>
> ... you don't know what you've got 'till it's gone..
>
> - Joni Mitchell
>
>
> From: "Almeida Pinto, Jorge de"
> Reply-To: ActiveDir@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
> To: ,
> Subject: RE: [ActiveDir] Restore twice in Disaster Recovery?
> Date: Sun, 13 Nov 2005 16:59:03 +0100
>
> I did not say "System State" and "Windows Directory"
>
> I said: "System State" and "System Disk / Boot Volume" (the latter is the
> volume that CONTAINS the Windows directory)
>
> Jorge
>
> ________________________________
>
> From: ActiveDir-owner@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx on behalf of Umer Y.
> Sent: Sun 11/13/2005 4:20 PM
> To: ActiveDir@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
> Subject: RE: [ActiveDir] Restore twice in Disaster Recovery?
>
>
>
> Thanks a bunch Joge.
>
> I am doing W2K3 restore. I didn't know about the bit about SYSVOL restore,
> but I assumed it would be backed up with System State. I am going to try
> to
> do System State AND the Windows Directory today, and see how that goes, as
> doing just system state hasn't gone well so far.
>
> Also, one thing that I noticed is that, when doing restore using ntbackup,
> when I select the file -> System state. The five items show up in the
> right
> pane with their correct modified date, but Active Directory shows up
> without
> a date, hence blank. Am I correct to assume that it is because the host
> machine is not a DC, that is why no presence of AD modified date while
> restoring?
>
>
>
>
> ... you don't know what you've got 'till it's gone..
>
> - Joni Mitchell
>
>
> From: "Almeida Pinto, Jorge de"
> Reply-To: ActiveDir@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
> To:
> Subject: RE: [ActiveDir] Restore twice in Disaster Recovery?
> Date: Sun, 13 Nov 2005 03:51:10 +0100
>
> Hi,
>
> You have not told us if you are using W2K or W2K3 AD... There is a tiny
> difference between the two...
> When doing a bare metal restore I always advise to restore a backup of the
> System Disk (in MS terms it is called the boot volume, and for both it
> means
> the volume with the WIndows/Winnt directory) AND the System State...
> In W2K3 restoring the system state also rebuilds the SYSVOL structure, no
> matter the location of it... When backing up the system state on a w2k DC,
> you should also backup the SYSVOL structure with it. Why?
>
> The SYSVOL structure is like:
> SYSVOL DOMAIN STAGING DOMAIN STAGING AREAS SYSVOL
> In W2K3 when restoring the system state the structure mentioned above will
> be restored correctly.
> In W2K when restorin the system state the structure mentioned above will
> NOT
> be restored correctly! In fact it will only restore "A". It will not
> restore
> "B".
> So in W2K3 it suffices to select the system state to also restore the
> SYSVOL
> structure In W2K to restore the SYSVOL structure I advise to select at
> backup the System State AND the SYSVOL structure starting at "S"
> So if you are using the default AD/SYSVOL paths and if you restore the
> system disk and the system state everything will be OK as the sysvol
> structure is backupped with the system disk.
> If you have AD/SYSVOL on other volumes, for W2K, I advise to backup at
> least
> the System Disk, the System State and additionally the SYSVOL structure
> starting at "S". This is especially important when doing a bare metal
> restore.
> IMHO, for a DC you should always at least backup the system disk and the
> system state, and if it is a w2k DC also backup the FULL SYSVOL structure.
>
> Remember, if you are restoring the first DC in a certain domain you need
> to
> restore AD non-auth. and SYSVOL auth. (for the latter in other words as
> PRIMARY)
>
> Hope this helps you!
>
> Cheers,
> Jorge
>
> ________________________________
>
> From: ActiveDir-owner@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx on behalf of Umer Y.
> Sent: Sun 11/13/2005 2:36 AM
> To: ActiveDir@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
> Subject: [ActiveDir] Restore twice in Disaster Recovery?
>
>
>
> Hello All!
>
> I have researched this question quite a bit, but have not found a solid
> answer as to why or how this would be done.
>
> I am doing a disaster recovery test on VMs, to eliminate the part of
> 'dissimilar hardware' or to simulate 'Identical hardware' in real life
> scenario. But I am running into some trouble while doing this, and hope
> that
> some of you can help me out here.
>
> Here is what I have:
>
> A single DC that holds all FSMO roles.
> I am using ntbackup to take only System State backup of the good DC. paths default>
>
> Here is what I do to restore:
>
> Got a freshly installed 2003 standalone server.
> Hooked it into a hub to get network connectivity.
> Give it the same ip as my good DC
> In normal mode, while logged in as local admin, ran ntbackup, and restored
> the file created from orginial DC with defaults. create junctions> and restarted.
> In normal mode, it gives an error 0xc000018e, and says to restart in DSRM.
> Upon rebooting in DSRM, DC asks to activate windows, and after passing
> that,
> when I ran ntdsutil, it does not pass file integrity.
> Upon closer inspection, in Windows\NTDS, I have only ntds.dit and one log
> file, when originally I am supposed to have more than that just two files.
>
> --
>
> Now I can't boot up into the normal mode, and I tried to do a restore
> second
> time while being in DSRM, but that didn't help either.
>
> I am thinking to blow away this copy and reinstall again and do ntbackup
> again, but should I do the restore twice before rebooting?
>
> I read in the list archives that while restoring, do restore to original
> location once and second time to an alternate location. What is that
> about?
>
>
> Also, would doing a back up of System State AND the whole C Drive help?
>
>
> Thanks a lot in advance!
>
>
>
>
> ... you don't know what you've got 'till it's gone..
>
> - Joni Mitchell
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