| Author | Messages | |
neilruston
Posts:164
 | | 11/14/2008 3:25 AM |
|
Agreed but this is about the reality of the situation, not the perfect
world if all was done properly this is how it would work. Maintaining
those relationships is as important as not being sued for failed
delivery. Companies that don't take that into account will fail due to
loss of customers.
*** Agreed - relationships again and OT as far as the OP is concerned
:-)
And going back to the original point of the lowly guy in the trenches,
if you lose a companies entire directory because of a single DC going
south and not being able to recover, I don't care what he/she said to
management, that load is coming down on their head in some way shape or
form.
*** If "Load coming down" means "a load of work" - agreed again. This
does not imply accountability though.
________________________________
From: ActiveDir-owner@mail.activedir.org
[mailto:ActiveDir-owner@mail.activedir.org] On Behalf Of
neil.ruston@barclayswealth.com
Sent: Thursday, November 13, 2008 11:37 AM
To: ActiveDir@mail.activedir.org
Subject: RE: [ActiveDir] Merging Forests?
You've described 'maintaining the relationship' again :-)
Tell me that HP will spend bucks to protect itself since HP is
accountable and we can re-start the debate :-)
________________________________
From: ActiveDir-owner@mail.activedir.org
[mailto:ActiveDir-owner@mail.activedir.org] On Behalf Of joe
Sent: 13 November 2008 16:26
To: ActiveDir@mail.activedir.org
Subject: RE: [ActiveDir] Merging Forests?
That example was a C&I example which is very different from OS... I
can't share most of the OS stories I have heard. But I can assure you,
HP does over and above stuff on a fairly regular basis as it is much
smoother to do that than argue points in a contract if the sticking
point or problem spot could be cleared by some measely small expense of
hardware. Of course there is a difference if we are talking 10 machines
versus 1000 to help out. 10 machines can often get lost in the shuffle
or reallocated, etc. Even a single server, in dire need, could become
15-20 virtuals if the needs warranted it. Overall, look at the P&Ls for
HP, HP isn't making all their big bucks in OS, it is coming out of
Printing.
--
O'Reilly Active Directory Third Edition -
http://www.joeware.net/win/ad3e.htm
________________________________
From: ActiveDir-owner@mail.activedir.org
[mailto:ActiveDir-owner@mail.activedir.org] On Behalf Of
neil.ruston@barclayswealth.com
Sent: Thursday, November 13, 2008 11:05 AM
To: ActiveDir@mail.activedir.org
Subject: RE: [ActiveDir] Merging Forests?
Now you've gone off at a tangent and addressed a different point. i.e.
HP and others will do what they can to preserve the relationship. [I
deliberately used HP as the example for obvious reasons :-)]
Rocky was clearly indicating that HP would have their ar*e on the line -
I'm stating that this latter point is not the case.
To use your example: The customer signed off the design and associated
risks. The smelly stuff hit the fan and HP were called in to help
address the situation. At no point were HP held accountable for the
issue. If that were the case, they would be penalised under the
contracts in place. That is the key - accountability. IT are accountable
for delivering the solutions 'bought'. IT are not accountable for
anything outside of this scope. [You can debate whether this pans out in
the real world til the cows come home - if you have a properly
structured IT and business relationship, then there is no debate to be
had :-)]
I actual think we're mostly in agreement but perhaps talking at cross
purposes :-)
neil
________________________________
From: ActiveDir-owner@mail.activedir.org
[mailto:ActiveDir-owner@mail.activedir.org] On Behalf Of joe
Sent: 13 November 2008 15:49
To: ActiveDir@mail.activedir.org
Subject: RE: [ActiveDir] Merging Forests?
I happen to know a little bit about HP as well, at least their stuff
around Outsourcing Services and know what can happen behind the scenes
that customers never have a view on in order to put HP in a better
position to help or to cover for situations they find untenable. Of
course if the customer really wants to run in a certain way and HP gets
their signoff to that specific effect, they will do that to. But the
customer will very aware of what they are signing and that it is a get
out of jail regardless of whatever for HP addendum. Note that C&I
(Consulting and Integration - they design, maybe set up and definitely
walk away) experiences could be different as I haven't really spoken in
any detail to any of those guys how they support customers, not to the
extent anyway, that I have spoken with Outsourcing Services people.
And even still... in the end, when something happens, HP will still try
to bail them out. I recall umm hearing about one issue once with a
branch of the Federal Government where it was actually only C&I that was
involved (one of the few stories I have heard about C&I) and the
customer took the original design for a complex directory/messaging
environment, completely destroyed it by cutting out fault tolerance and
recovery stuff in the implementation to save money, then blew up and
crashed and burned and then called HP to help and HP walked in with a
ton of free hardware (SANs and machines if I recall the story properly)
and work to get them back up and running. Then once running HP offered
up some of their best messaging and directory operations as well as
consulting guys from around the world to sit in on a week full of
meetings to ascertain root cause and offer guidance on how to avoid the
issue - of which the guidance was - follow the original plan from C&I
and don't pull out two power supplies out of a SAN that only had three
running power supplies and if you do, do it in one quick jerk so the
machine goes down quickly, don't slowly edge it out so the SAN takes
power surges through the whole thing. They wiped out the SAN Hardware
and SAN Data all in one fell swoop and had no way to recover properly
and tried using old methods for the old environment. And none... none of
this assistance got charged back to the customer. It was all about good
faith effort and that HP wants to be partners with the companies they
supply services to. I don't think I ever recall hearing that HP has said
to one of its customers, yeah you are totally screwed when HP was the
one running their stuff for them.
joe
--
O'Reilly Active Directory Third Edition -
http://www.joeware.net/win/ad3e.htm
________________________________
From: ActiveDir-owner@mail.activedir.org
[mailto:ActiveDir-owner@mail.activedir.org] On Behalf Of
neil.ruston@barclayswealth.com
Sent: Thursday, November 13, 2008 4:15 AM
To: ActiveDir@mail.activedir.org
Subject: RE: [ActiveDir] Merging Forests?
Sorry joe, but no way will HP [for e.g.] build out extra infra to
protect itself when the client has refused not to pay for said infra and
services. Are you suggesting that the service provider pay for the
additional tin, maintenance, support etc etc??
IT does NOT exist for its own purpose - it's a service provided to/for
others. I frequently use a shopping list as an analogy - 'here's what's
available, now choose what you want / don't want'. I then explain the
ramifications of the choices, we agree, sign contracts / agreements and
off we go.
I've worked with HP several times too and this is precisely how they
operate too.
Thanks,
neil
________________________________
From: ActiveDir-owner@mail.activedir.org
[mailto:ActiveDir-owner@mail.activedir.org] On Behalf Of joe
Sent: 12 November 2008 17:00
To: ActiveDir@mail.activedir.org
Subject: RE: [ActiveDir] Merging Forests?
The tough part is trying to sell the understanding of the risk. I don't
think many IT departments are actually very good at that because lots of
people can't adequately look around the corners to come up with and then
describe those risks and the resulting impact. One reason is they just
don't have those skills, but another is many people don't really want to
point out where they could fail.
Too many people, also, fall into the trap that if they can't see the
problem, they believe there isn't one. Or to put it another way, just
because you can't hack or otherwise damage your network doesn't mean I
can't...
Anyway, I am with Rocky in this in that I would make sure I had
*something* to protect my A when something went down despite what the
business understands or wants. I look at the business as like children
and the IT people are the parents there trying to make sure the children
are going to be ok when they play with matches because they didn't
understand they could burn down the house. You can't cover everything
but you should be looking out for the really egregious stuff.
joe
--
O'Reilly Active Directory Third Edition -
http://www.joeware.net/win/ad3e.htm
________________________________
From: ActiveDir-owner@mail.activedir.org
[mailto:ActiveDir-owner@mail.activedir.org] On Behalf Of
neil.ruston@barclayswealth.com
Sent: Wednesday, November 12, 2008 11:46 AM
To: ActiveDir@mail.activedir.org
Subject: RE: [ActiveDir] Merging Forests?
I disagree with your disagreement :-)
The business own the risk not me. If the sh** hits the fan and I'm
called in to fix it - fine. My ar** is not on the line coz the business
already accepted the risk.
IT's "raison d'etre" is to provide services as per business
requirements. If the business don't require DR/BCP then that's fine. I
would explain the pros and cons and let a business exec sign off the
risk.
neil
________________________________
From: ActiveDir-owner@mail.activedir.org
[mailto:ActiveDir-owner@mail.activedir.org] On Behalf Of Rocky Habeeb
Sent: 12 November 2008 16:35
To: ActiveDir@mail.activedir.org
Subject: RE: [ActiveDir] Merging Forests?
Well ... Mr Mulnick.
Respectfully, I disagree.
Setting expectations is one thing.
But the bottom line is ... HE will have to come in to fix the outage
when the ONLY DC goes down.
Not the School Superintendent.
Not the Teachers.
Not the Students.
Not anybody else.
And who knows HOW it will go down.
Soft or Hard.
And PSS may or may not be able to help.
So ... in essence ... it IS a technical issue.
And it will ALWAYS be a technical issue.
Managing expectations is one thing.
But making SURE that people understand that something is UNACCEPTABLE is
another.
And what that means is that when you determine that Power does NOT
understand the true ramifications,
>>You<< fix it.
Yourself.
With or without authority.
With or without money.
But you fix it.
Because it's your a** hanging out there.
Nobody elses.
Al, I have read an awful lot of what you have written in the past few
years.
And I can promise you ... that YOU would not allow that to stand on your
watch.
With or without authority to fix it.
With or without money.
And ... neither would I.
RH
__________________________________________________
-----Original Message-----
From: ActiveDir-owner@mail.activedir.org
[mailto:ActiveDir-owner@mail.activedir.org]On Behalf Of Al Mulnick
Sent: 12 November, 2008 11:21 AM
To: ActiveDir@mail.activedir.org
Subject: Re: [ActiveDir] Merging Forests?
I don't think must is the right way to put that. The only
requirement you should consider is that you should set the proper
expectations. i.e. this is money well spent to alleviate future extended
outages in the student network.
After that, it's not really a technical issue, now is it?
On Wed, Nov 12, 2008 at 11:18 AM, Rocky Habeeb <habr@jws.com>
wrote:
"You MUST get a BDC in place ..."
End of story.
Others will elaborate.
But right now, my humble opinion is that merging foresets is NOT
your priority.
RH
_________________________________________
-----Original Message-----
From: ActiveDir-owner@mail.activedir.org
[mailto:ActiveDir-owner@mail.activedir.org]On Behalf Of James Bensley
Sent: 12 November, 2008 11:12 AM
To: ActiveDir@mail.activedir.org
Subject: Re: [ActiveDir] Merging Forests?
I know several people are point thing out to me about
the lack of a bdc but allow me to quote myself,
"Also money is so scarce I sometimes
forget the word exists as I work for a charity."
-----BEGIN GEEK CODE BLOCK-----
Version: 3.1
GIT/MU/U dpu s: a--> C++>$ U+> L++> B-> P+> E?> W+++>$ N
K W++ O M++>$ V-
PS+++ PE++ Y+ PGP t 5 X+ R- tv+ b+> DI D+++ G+ e(+++++)
h--(++) r++ z++
------END GEEK CODE BLOCK------
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This email may relate to or be sent from other members of the Barclays
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The availability of products and services may be limited by the
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internet email. Any action that you might take upon this message might
be at your own risk.
This email and any attachments are confidential and intended solely for
the addressee and may also be privileged or exempt from disclosure under
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this email or its attachments.
Internet communications are not guaranteed to be secure or without
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Any opinion or other information in this email or its attachments that
does not relate to the business of the Barclays Group is personal to the
sender and is not given or endorsed by the Barclays Group.
Barclays Bank PLC. Registered in England and Wales (registered no.
1026167).
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Barclays Bank PLC is authorised and regulated by the Financial Services
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The availability of products and services may be limited by the applicable laws and regulations in certain jurisdictions. The Barclays Group does not normally accept or offer business instructions via internet email. Any action that you might take upon this message might be at your own risk.
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Internet communications are not guaranteed to be secure or without viruses. The Barclays Group does not accept responsibility for any loss arising from unauthorised access to, or interference with, any Internet communications by any third party, or from the transmission of any viruses. Replies to this email may be monitored by the Barclays Group for operational or business reasons.
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| | | |
| jamesawells
Posts:79
| | 11/14/2008 6:20 AM |
| Agreed -- but "accountability" and "the poor small shop IT worker
being fired the next day" aren't the same thing, either 
THAT's more on topic to the OP's questions...and why everyone has been
suggesting that he just build a second DC...
On Fri, Nov 14, 2008 at 3:20 AM, <neil.ruston@barclayswealth.com> wrote:
>
>
> Agreed but this is about the reality of the situation, not the perfect world
> if all was done properly this is how it would work. Maintaining those
> relationships is as important as not being sued for failed delivery.
> Companies that don't take that into account will fail due to loss
> of customers.
>
> *** Agreed – relationships again and OT as far as the OP is concerned J
>
>
>
> And going back to the original point of the lowly guy in the trenches, if
> you lose a companies entire directory because of a single DC going south and
> not being able to recover, I don't care what he/she said to management, that
> load is coming down on their head in some way shape or form.
>
> *** If "Load coming down" means "a load of work" – agreed again. This does
> not imply accountability though.
>
>
>
>
>
> ________________________________
>
> From: ActiveDir-owner@mail.activedir.org
> [mailto:ActiveDir-owner@mail.activedir.org] On Behalf Of
> neil.ruston@barclayswealth.com
> Sent: Thursday, November 13, 2008 11:37 AM
> To: ActiveDir@mail.activedir.org
> Subject: RE: [ActiveDir] Merging Forests?
>
> You've described 'maintaining the relationship' again J
>
> Tell me that HP will spend bucks to protect itself since HP is accountable
> and we can re-start the debate J
>
> ________________________________
>
> From: ActiveDir-owner@mail.activedir.org
> [mailto:ActiveDir-owner@mail.activedir.org] On Behalf Of joe
> Sent: 13 November 2008 16:26
> To: ActiveDir@mail.activedir.org
> Subject: RE: [ActiveDir] Merging Forests?
>
>
>
> That example was a C&I example which is very different from OS... I can't
> share most of the OS stories I have heard. But I can assure you, HP does
> over and above stuff on a fairly regular basis as it is much smoother to do
> that than argue points in a contract if the sticking point or problem
> spot could be cleared by some measely small expense of hardware. Of
> course there is a difference if we are talking 10 machines versus 1000 to
> help out. 10 machines can often get lost in the shuffle or reallocated, etc.
> Even a single server, in dire need, could become 15-20 virtuals if the needs
> warranted it. Overall, look at the P&Ls for HP, HP isn't making all their
> big bucks in OS, it is coming out of Printing.
>
>
>
>
>
> --
>
> O'Reilly Active Directory Third Edition -
> http://www.joeware.net/win/ad3e.htm
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> ________________________________
>
> From: ActiveDir-owner@mail.activedir.org
> [mailto:ActiveDir-owner@mail.activedir.org] On Behalf Of
> neil.ruston@barclayswealth.com
> Sent: Thursday, November 13, 2008 11:05 AM
> To: ActiveDir@mail.activedir.org
> Subject: RE: [ActiveDir] Merging Forests?
>
> Now you've gone off at a tangent and addressed a different point. i.e. HP
> and others will do what they can to preserve the relationship. [I
> deliberately used HP as the example for obvious reasons J]
>
>
>
> Rocky was clearly indicating that HP would have their ar*e on the line - I'm
> stating that this latter point is not the case.
>
>
>
> To use your example: The customer signed off the design and associated
> risks. The smelly stuff hit the fan and HP were called in to help address
> the situation. At no point were HP held accountable for the issue. If that
> were the case, they would be penalised under the contracts in place. That is
> the key – accountability. IT are accountable for delivering the solutions
> 'bought'. IT are not accountable for anything outside of this scope. [You
> can debate whether this pans out in the real world til the cows come home –
> if you have a properly structured IT and business relationship, then there
> is no debate to be had J]
>
>
>
> I actual think we're mostly in agreement but perhaps talking at cross
> purposes J
>
> neil
>
> ________________________________
>
> From: ActiveDir-owner@mail.activedir.org
> [mailto:ActiveDir-owner@mail.activedir.org] On Behalf Of joe
> Sent: 13 November 2008 15:49
> To: ActiveDir@mail.activedir.org
> Subject: RE: [ActiveDir] Merging Forests?
>
>
>
> I happen to know a little bit about HP as well, at least their stuff around
> Outsourcing Services and know what can happen behind the scenes that
> customers never have a view on in order to put HP in a better position to
> help or to cover for situations they find untenable. Of course if the
> customer really wants to run in a certain way and HP gets their signoff to
> that specific effect, they will do that to. But the customer will very aware
> of what they are signing and that it is a get out of jail regardless of
> whatever for HP addendum. Note that C&I (Consulting and Integration - they
> design, maybe set up and definitely walk away) experiences could be
> different as I haven't really spoken in any detail to any of those guys how
> they support customers, not to the extent anyway, that I have spoken with
> Outsourcing Services people.
>
>
>
> And even still... in the end, when something happens, HP will still try to
> bail them out. I recall umm hearing about one issue once with a branch of
> the Federal Government where it was actually only C&I that was involved (one
> of the few stories I have heard about C&I) and the customer took the
> original design for a complex directory/messaging environment, completely
> destroyed it by cutting out fault tolerance and recovery stuff in the
> implementation to save money, then blew up and crashed and burned and then
> called HP to help and HP walked in with a ton of free hardware (SANs and
> machines if I recall the story properly) and work to get them back up and
> running. Then once running HP offered up some of their best messaging and
> directory operations as well as consulting guys from around the world to sit
> in on a week full of meetings to ascertain root cause and offer guidance on
> how to avoid the issue - of which the guidance was - follow the original
> plan from C&I and don't pull out two power supplies out of a SAN that only
> had three running power supplies and if you do, do it in one quick jerk so
> the machine goes down quickly, don't slowly edge it out so the SAN takes
> power surges through the whole thing. They wiped out the SAN Hardware
> and SAN Data all in one fell swoop and had no way to recover properly and
> tried using old methods for the old environment. And none... none of this
> assistance got charged back to the customer. It was all about good faith
> effort and that HP wants to be partners with the companies they supply
> services to. I don't think I ever recall hearing that HP has said to one of
> its customers, yeah you are totally screwed when HP was the one running
> their stuff for them.
>
>
>
>
>
> joe
>
>
>
>
>
> --
>
> O'Reilly Active Directory Third Edition -
> http://www.joeware.net/win/ad3e.htm
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> ________________________________
>
> From: ActiveDir-owner@mail.activedir.org
> [mailto:ActiveDir-owner@mail.activedir.org] On Behalf Of
> neil.ruston@barclayswealth.com
> Sent: Thursday, November 13, 2008 4:15 AM
> To: ActiveDir@mail.activedir.org
> Subject: RE: [ActiveDir] Merging Forests?
>
> Sorry joe, but no way will HP [for e.g.] build out extra infra to protect
> itself when the client has refused not to pay for said infra and services.
> Are you suggesting that the service provider pay for the additional tin,
> maintenance, support etc etc??
>
>
>
> IT does NOT exist for its own purpose – it's a service provided to/for
> others. I frequently use a shopping list as an analogy – 'here's what's
> available, now choose what you want / don't want'. I then explain the
> ramifications of the choices, we agree, sign contracts / agreements and off
> we go.
>
>
>
> I've worked with HP several times too and this is precisely how they operate
> too.
>
>
>
> Thanks,
> neil
>
> ________________________________
>
> From: ActiveDir-owner@mail.activedir.org
> [mailto:ActiveDir-owner@mail.activedir.org] On Behalf Of joe
> Sent: 12 November 2008 17:00
> To: ActiveDir@mail.activedir.org
> Subject: RE: [ActiveDir] Merging Forests?
>
>
>
> The tough part is trying to sell the understanding of the risk. I don't
> think many IT departments are actually very good at that because lots of
> people can't adequately look around the corners to come up with and then
> describe those risks and the resulting impact. One reason is they just don't
> have those skills, but another is many people don't really want to point out
> where they could fail.
>
>
>
> Too many people, also, fall into the trap that if they can't see the
> problem, they believe there isn't one. Or to put it another way, just
> because you can't hack or otherwise damage your network doesn't mean I
> can't...
>
>
>
> Anyway, I am with Rocky in this in that I would make sure I had *something*
> to protect my A when something went down despite what the business
> understands or wants. I look at the business as like children and the IT
> people are the parents there trying to make sure the children are going to
> be ok when they play with matches because they didn't understand they could
> burn down the house. You can't cover everything but you should be looking
> out for the really egregious stuff.
>
>
>
>
>
> joe
>
>
>
>
>
> --
>
> O'Reilly Active Directory Third Edition -
> http://www.joeware.net/win/ad3e.htm
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> ________________________________
>
> From: ActiveDir-owner@mail.activedir.org
> [mailto:ActiveDir-owner@mail.activedir.org] On Behalf Of
> neil.ruston@barclayswealth.com
> Sent: Wednesday, November 12, 2008 11:46 AM
> To: ActiveDir@mail.activedir.org
> Subject: RE: [ActiveDir] Merging Forests?
>
> I disagree with your disagreement J
>
> The business own the risk not me. If the sh** hits the fan and I'm called in
> to fix it – fine. My ar** is not on the line coz the business already
> accepted the risk.
>
> IT's "raison d'etre" is to provide services as per business requirements.
> If the business don't require DR/BCP then that's fine. I would explain the
> pros and cons and let a business exec sign off the risk.
>
>
>
> neil
>
> ________________________________
>
> From: ActiveDir-owner@mail.activedir.org
> [mailto:ActiveDir-owner@mail.activedir.org] On Behalf Of Rocky Habeeb
> Sent: 12 November 2008 16:35
> To: ActiveDir@mail.activedir.org
> Subject: RE: [ActiveDir] Merging Forests?
>
>
>
> Well ... Mr Mulnick.
>
> Respectfully, I disagree.
>
> Setting expectations is one thing.
>
> But the bottom line is ... HE will have to come in to fix the outage when
> the ONLY DC goes down.
>
> Not the School Superintendent.
>
> Not the Teachers.
>
> Not the Students.
>
> Not anybody else.
>
> And who knows HOW it will go down.
>
> Soft or Hard.
>
> And PSS may or may not be able to help.
>
> So ... in essence ... it IS a technical issue.
>
> And it will ALWAYS be a technical issue.
>
> Managing expectations is one thing.
>
> But making SURE that people understand that something is UNACCEPTABLE is
> another.
>
> And what that means is that when you determine that Power does NOT
> understand the true ramifications,
>
>>>You<< fix it.
>
> Yourself.
>
> With or without authority.
>
> With or without money.
>
> But you fix it.
>
> Because it's your a** hanging out there.
>
> Nobody elses.
>
> Al, I have read an awful lot of what you have written in the past few years.
>
> And I can promise you ... that YOU would not allow that to stand on your
> watch.
>
> With or without authority to fix it.
>
> With or without money.
>
> And ... neither would I.
>
>
>
> RH
> __________________________________________________
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: ActiveDir-owner@mail.activedir.org
> [mailto:ActiveDir-owner@mail.activedir.org]On Behalf Of Al Mulnick
> Sent: 12 November, 2008 11:21 AM
> To: ActiveDir@mail.activedir.org
> Subject: Re: [ActiveDir] Merging Forests?
>
> I don't think must is the right way to put that. The only requirement you
> should consider is that you should set the proper expectations. i.e. this is
> money well spent to alleviate future extended outages in the student
> network.
>
>
>
> After that, it's not really a technical issue, now is it?
>
> On Wed, Nov 12, 2008 at 11:18 AM, Rocky Habeeb <habr@jws.com> wrote:
>
> "You MUST get a BDC in place ..."
>
> End of story.
>
>
>
> Others will elaborate.
>
> But right now, my humble opinion is that merging foresets is NOT your
> priority.
>
>
>
> RH
> _________________________________________
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: ActiveDir-owner@mail.activedir.org
> [mailto:ActiveDir-owner@mail.activedir.org]On Behalf Of James Bensley
>
> Sent: 12 November, 2008 11:12 AM
> To: ActiveDir@mail.activedir.org
> Subject: Re: [ActiveDir] Merging Forests?
>
> I know several people are point thing out to me about the lack of a bdc but
> allow me to quote myself,
>
> "Also money is so scarce I sometimes forget the word exists as I work for a
> charity."
>
>
>
>
>
> -----BEGIN GEEK CODE BLOCK-----
> Version: 3.1
> GIT/MU/U dpu s: a--> C++>$ U+> L++> B-> P+> E?> W+++>$ N K W++ O M++>$ V-
> PS+++ PE++ Y+ PGP t 5 X+ R- tv+ b+> DI D+++ G+ e(+++++) h--(++) r++ z++
> ------END GEEK CODE BLOCK------
>
>
>
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