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Subject: [ActiveDir] SBS Server Question
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jmedeiros@xxxx.yyy

09/14/2005 5:48 AM  
Hi Susan,

Since we have an SBS MVP on the Active Dir list, let me ask a question.

Can I now make an SBS 2003 server a child domain in an AD 2003 forest?

Before you ask why, some one asked me this recently at a Linux users group meeting, as his company has several remote offices using SBS 2003.

Also on SBS 4.5, one could have a BDC as a backup, can this also be done with a DC or are you " Sh.T out of luck " when a box fails?

Jose
List info : http://www.activedir.org/List.aspx
List FAQ : http://www.activedir.org/ListFAQ.aspx
List archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/activedir%40mail.activedir.org/
sbradcpaUser is Offline

Posts:496

09/14/2005 6:14 AM  
Nope. No trusts, no forests. We're the spoiled only PDC that must hold
all the FSMO roles. We can do some funky stuff with pass through
authentication, but no trusts.
US versus THEM:
http://www.sbslinks.com/Us_v_them.htm

In SBS 2000/2003 the 'correct' terminology is Yes, an 'additional domain
controller' is supported and not calling it a BDC.

Member servers are covered by the SBS cals but last I read in the PUR
the additional DC would need server cals. [that's my interpretation
anyway but I get a headache reading that doc in the first place]
Honestly ...keep in mind that with XPs, they will used cached
credentials and you can log into that profile even if the network is
down. Now comes the fun... who's doing the DHCP? The recommended way is
to have the SBS box to do that...so you still have fun. If the SBS box
goes down, I normally have ways around the temporarily failure [and even
then I can count on one hand the time my network has been affected....
power mostly, then NICs, then switches, and one harddrive falling off a
RAID. Get good equipment [and honestly either reinstall those OEMs and
stay away from those preinstalled versions] and we do just fine.


Medeiros, Jose wrote:

Hi Susan,
Since we have an SBS MVP on the Active Dir list, let me ask a question.

Can I now make an SBS 2003 server a child domain in an AD 2003 forest?
Before you ask why, some one asked me this recently at a Linux users group meeting, as his company has several remote offices using SBS 2003.

Also on SBS 4.5, one could have a BDC as a backup, can this also be done with a DC or are you " Sh.T out of luck " when a box fails?
Jose
List info : http://www.activedir.org/List.aspx
List FAQ : http://www.activedir.org/ListFAQ.aspx
List archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/activedir%40mail.activedir.org/



--
Letting your vendors set your risk analysis these days?
http://www.threatcode.com
List info : http://www.activedir.org/List.aspx
List FAQ : http://www.activedir.org/ListFAQ.aspx
List archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/activedir%40mail.activedir.org/
bdesmondUser is Offline

Posts:996

09/14/2005 6:31 AM  
My understanding is that you can have more than one DC in a SBS domain but
the SBS box must hold the FSMOs. You cannot have an SBS box be a child
domain in a forest as the trust functionality in SBS AD is totally shutdown.
Thanks,
Brian Desmond
brian@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx

c - 312.731.3132



-----Original Message-----
From: ActiveDir-owner@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
[mailto:ActiveDir-owner@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Medeiros, Jose
Sent: Wednesday, September 14, 2005 1:47 PM
To: ActiveDir@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: [ActiveDir] SBS Server Question

Hi Susan,

Since we have an SBS MVP on the Active Dir list, let me ask a question.

Can I now make an SBS 2003 server a child domain in an AD 2003 forest?

Before you ask why, some one asked me this recently at a Linux users group
meeting, as his company has several remote offices using SBS 2003.

Also on SBS 4.5, one could have a BDC as a backup, can this also be done
with a DC or are you " Sh.T out of luck " when a box fails?

Jose
List info : http://www.activedir.org/List.aspx
List FAQ : http://www.activedir.org/ListFAQ.aspx
List archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/activedir%40mail.activedir.org/

List info : http://www.activedir.org/List.aspx
List FAQ : http://www.activedir.org/ListFAQ.aspx
List archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/activedir%40mail.activedir.org/
AD000001012User is Offline

Posts:0

09/14/2005 6:49 AM  
Hi Jose,

No, an SBS domain cannot have trusts, so it cannot be a child domain.

And yes, after you have installed an SBS box, you can install additional DCs, if they are normal Windows Server 2003 boxes.

Yours, Sakari


> -----Original Message-----
> From: ActiveDir-owner@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
> [mailto:ActiveDir-owner@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of
> Medeiros, Jose
> Sent: Wednesday, September 14, 2005 8:47 PM
> To: ActiveDir@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
> Subject: [ActiveDir] SBS Server Question
>
> Hi Susan,
>
> Since we have an SBS MVP on the Active Dir list, let me ask a
> question.
>
> Can I now make an SBS 2003 server a child domain in an AD
> 2003 forest?
>
> Before you ask why, some one asked me this recently at a
> Linux users group meeting, as his company has several remote
> offices using SBS 2003.
>
> Also on SBS 4.5, one could have a BDC as a backup, can this
> also be done with a DC or are you " Sh.T out of luck " when a
> box fails?
>
> Jose
>
>
> List info : http://www.activedir.org/List.aspx
> List FAQ : http://www.activedir.org/ListFAQ.aspx
> List archive:
> http://www.mail-archive.com/activedir%40mail.activedir.org/
>
List info : http://www.activedir.org/List.aspx
List FAQ : http://www.activedir.org/ListFAQ.aspx
List archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/activedir%40mail.activedir.org/
dejiUser is Offline

Posts:262

09/14/2005 7:49 AM  
Actually, depending on your level of tolerance for pains, I know that you
can.

http://www.akomolafe.com/Portals/1/Creating%20a%20trust%20relationship%20betw
een%20two%20Small%20Business%20Server%202000%20domains.htm


Sincerely,

Dèjì Akómöláfé, MCSE+M MCSA+M MCP+I
Microsoft MVP - Directory Services
www.readymaids.com - we know IT
www.akomolafe.com
Do you now realize that Today is the Tomorrow you were worried about
Yesterday? -anon

________________________________

From: ActiveDir-owner@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx on behalf of Sakari Kouti
Sent: Wed 9/14/2005 11:46 AM
To: ActiveDir@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: RE: [ActiveDir] SBS Server Question

Hi Jose,

No, an SBS domain cannot have trusts, so it cannot be a child domain.

And yes, after you have installed an SBS box, you can install additional DCs,
if they are normal Windows Server 2003 boxes.

Yours, Sakari


> -----Original Message-----
> From: ActiveDir-owner@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
> [mailto:ActiveDir-owner@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of
> Medeiros, Jose
> Sent: Wednesday, September 14, 2005 8:47 PM
> To: ActiveDir@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
> Subject: [ActiveDir] SBS Server Question
>
> Hi Susan,
>
> Since we have an SBS MVP on the Active Dir list, let me ask a
> question.
>
> Can I now make an SBS 2003 server a child domain in an AD
> 2003 forest?
>
> Before you ask why, some one asked me this recently at a
> Linux users group meeting, as his company has several remote
> offices using SBS 2003.
>
> Also on SBS 4.5, one could have a BDC as a backup, can this
> also be done with a DC or are you " Sh.T out of luck " when a
> box fails?
>
> Jose
>
>
> List info : http://www.activedir.org/List.aspx
> List FAQ : http://www.activedir.org/ListFAQ.aspx
> List archive:
> http://www.mail-archive.com/activedir%40mail.activedir.org/
>
List info : http://www.activedir.org/List.aspx
List FAQ : http://www.activedir.org/ListFAQ.aspx
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sbradcpaUser is Offline

Posts:496

09/14/2005 7:53 AM  
EULA dear.

There's Can and there is legal.

No you can't and be legal... and for a MVP shame on you ;-)

deji@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx wrote:
Actually, depending on your level of tolerance for pains, I know that you
can.

http://www.akomolafe.com/Portals/1/Creating%20a%20trust%20relationship%20betw
een%20two%20Small%20Business%20Server%202000%20domains.htm
Sincerely,

Dèjì Akómöláfé, MCSE+M MCSA+M MCP+I
Microsoft MVP - Directory Services
www.readymaids.com - we know IT
www.akomolafe.com
Do you now realize that Today is the Tomorrow you were worried about
Yesterday? -anon

________________________________

From: ActiveDir-owner@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx on behalf of Sakari Kouti
Sent: Wed 9/14/2005 11:46 AM
To: ActiveDir@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: RE: [ActiveDir] SBS Server Question

Hi Jose,

No, an SBS domain cannot have trusts, so it cannot be a child domain.

And yes, after you have installed an SBS box, you can install additional DCs,
if they are normal Windows Server 2003 boxes.

Yours, Sakari

-----Original Message-----
From: ActiveDir-owner@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
[mailto:ActiveDir-owner@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of
Medeiros, Jose
Sent: Wednesday, September 14, 2005 8:47 PM
To: ActiveDir@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: [ActiveDir] SBS Server Question

Hi Susan,

Since we have an SBS MVP on the Active Dir list, let me ask a
question.

Can I now make an SBS 2003 server a child domain in an AD
2003 forest?

Before you ask why, some one asked me this recently at a
Linux users group meeting, as his company has several remote
offices using SBS 2003.

Also on SBS 4.5, one could have a BDC as a backup, can this
also be done with a DC or are you " Sh.T out of luck " when a
box fails?

Jose
List info : http://www.activedir.org/List.aspx
List FAQ : http://www.activedir.org/ListFAQ.aspx
List archive:
http://www.mail-archive.com/activedir%40mail.activedir.org/


List info : http://www.activedir.org/List.aspx
List FAQ : http://www.activedir.org/ListFAQ.aspx
List archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/activedir%40mail.activedir.org/
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List FAQ : http://www.activedir.org/ListFAQ.aspx
List archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/activedir%40mail.activedir.org/



--
Letting your vendors set your risk analysis these days?
http://www.threatcode.com
List info : http://www.activedir.org/List.aspx
List FAQ : http://www.activedir.org/ListFAQ.aspx
List archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/activedir%40mail.activedir.org/
sbradcpaUser is Offline

Posts:496

09/14/2005 7:56 AM  
Oh that's 2000

2003 you will get SBScore and it will shut down.

deji@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx wrote:
Actually, depending on your level of tolerance for pains, I know that you
can.

http://www.akomolafe.com/Portals/1/Creating%20a%20trust%20relationship%20betw
een%20two%20Small%20Business%20Server%202000%20domains.htm
Sincerely,

Dèjì Akómöláfé, MCSE+M MCSA+M MCP+I
Microsoft MVP - Directory Services
www.readymaids.com - we know IT
www.akomolafe.com
Do you now realize that Today is the Tomorrow you were worried about
Yesterday? -anon

________________________________

From: ActiveDir-owner@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx on behalf of Sakari Kouti
Sent: Wed 9/14/2005 11:46 AM
To: ActiveDir@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: RE: [ActiveDir] SBS Server Question

Hi Jose,

No, an SBS domain cannot have trusts, so it cannot be a child domain.

And yes, after you have installed an SBS box, you can install additional DCs,
if they are normal Windows Server 2003 boxes.

Yours, Sakari

-----Original Message-----
From: ActiveDir-owner@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
[mailto:ActiveDir-owner@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of
Medeiros, Jose
Sent: Wednesday, September 14, 2005 8:47 PM
To: ActiveDir@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: [ActiveDir] SBS Server Question

Hi Susan,

Since we have an SBS MVP on the Active Dir list, let me ask a
question.

Can I now make an SBS 2003 server a child domain in an AD
2003 forest?

Before you ask why, some one asked me this recently at a
Linux users group meeting, as his company has several remote
offices using SBS 2003.

Also on SBS 4.5, one could have a BDC as a backup, can this
also be done with a DC or are you " Sh.T out of luck " when a
box fails?

Jose
List info : http://www.activedir.org/List.aspx
List FAQ : http://www.activedir.org/ListFAQ.aspx
List archive:
http://www.mail-archive.com/activedir%40mail.activedir.org/


List info : http://www.activedir.org/List.aspx
List FAQ : http://www.activedir.org/ListFAQ.aspx
List archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/activedir%40mail.activedir.org/
List info : http://www.activedir.org/List.aspx
List FAQ : http://www.activedir.org/ListFAQ.aspx
List archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/activedir%40mail.activedir.org/



--
Letting your vendors set your risk analysis these days?
http://www.threatcode.com
List info : http://www.activedir.org/List.aspx
List FAQ : http://www.activedir.org/ListFAQ.aspx
List archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/activedir%40mail.activedir.org/
sbradcpaUser is Offline

Posts:496

09/14/2005 8:15 AM  
Just so you know ...we asked another MVP to take that unsupported hack
off of their site.
When you say pain... we've heard/we know the pain..the only way to
recover from that mess is to flatten and reinstall. PSS has seen the
mess that hack can cause.
As an MVP I'm an independent voice ...but I refuse to support harming
customers and especially the AD glue like that.
That's a very dangerous hack and one that can cause real damage and real
pain in SBS 2003. You do that one, and you get no support and no MVP
guidance. I refuse to endanger SBS boxes like that.
deji@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx wrote:
Actually, depending on your level of tolerance for pains, I know that you
can.

http://www.akomolafe.com/Portals/1/Creating%20a%20trust%20relationship%20betw
een%20two%20Small%20Business%20Server%202000%20domains.htm
Sincerely,

Dèjì Akómöláfé, MCSE+M MCSA+M MCP+I
Microsoft MVP - Directory Services
www.readymaids.com - we know IT
www.akomolafe.com
Do you now realize that Today is the Tomorrow you were worried about
Yesterday? -anon

________________________________

From: ActiveDir-owner@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx on behalf of Sakari Kouti
Sent: Wed 9/14/2005 11:46 AM
To: ActiveDir@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: RE: [ActiveDir] SBS Server Question

Hi Jose,

No, an SBS domain cannot have trusts, so it cannot be a child domain.

And yes, after you have installed an SBS box, you can install additional DCs,
if they are normal Windows Server 2003 boxes.

Yours, Sakari

-----Original Message-----
From: ActiveDir-owner@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
[mailto:ActiveDir-owner@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of
Medeiros, Jose
Sent: Wednesday, September 14, 2005 8:47 PM
To: ActiveDir@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: [ActiveDir] SBS Server Question

Hi Susan,

Since we have an SBS MVP on the Active Dir list, let me ask a
question.

Can I now make an SBS 2003 server a child domain in an AD
2003 forest?

Before you ask why, some one asked me this recently at a
Linux users group meeting, as his company has several remote
offices using SBS 2003.

Also on SBS 4.5, one could have a BDC as a backup, can this
also be done with a DC or are you " Sh.T out of luck " when a
box fails?

Jose
List info : http://www.activedir.org/List.aspx
List FAQ : http://www.activedir.org/ListFAQ.aspx
List archive:
http://www.mail-archive.com/activedir%40mail.activedir.org/


List info : http://www.activedir.org/List.aspx
List FAQ : http://www.activedir.org/ListFAQ.aspx
List archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/activedir%40mail.activedir.org/
List info : http://www.activedir.org/List.aspx
List FAQ : http://www.activedir.org/ListFAQ.aspx
List archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/activedir%40mail.activedir.org/



--
Letting your vendors set your risk analysis these days?
http://www.threatcode.com
List info : http://www.activedir.org/List.aspx
List FAQ : http://www.activedir.org/ListFAQ.aspx
List archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/activedir%40mail.activedir.org/
dejiUser is Offline

Posts:262

09/14/2005 8:44 AM  
OK, Susan. Dew time :)

"Should" and "Can" are not interchangeable, that's my opinion. When I explain
technical feasibilities to customers, I try not to hide the relevant
distinction.

BTW, I think the writer made it sufficiently clear that the procedure is a
"hack".


Sincerely,

Dèjì Akómöláfé, MCSE+M MCSA+M MCP+I
Microsoft MVP - Directory Services
www.readymaids.com - we know IT
www.akomolafe.com
Do you now realize that Today is the Tomorrow you were worried about
Yesterday? -anon

________________________________

From: ActiveDir-owner@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx on behalf of Susan Bradley, CPA aka
Ebitz - SBS Rocks [MVP]
Sent: Wed 9/14/2005 1:00 PM
To: ActiveDir@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: Re: [ActiveDir] SBS Server Question

Just so you know ...we asked another MVP to take that unsupported hack
off of their site.

When you say pain... we've heard/we know the pain..the only way to
recover from that mess is to flatten and reinstall. PSS has seen the
mess that hack can cause.

As an MVP I'm an independent voice ...but I refuse to support harming
customers and especially the AD glue like that.

That's a very dangerous hack and one that can cause real damage and real
pain in SBS 2003. You do that one, and you get no support and no MVP
guidance. I refuse to endanger SBS boxes like that.

deji@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx wrote:

>Actually, depending on your level of tolerance for pains, I know that you
>can.
>
>http://www.akomolafe.com/Portals/1/Creating%20a%20trust%20relationship%20bet
w
>een%20two%20Small%20Business%20Server%202000%20domains.htm
>
>
>Sincerely,
>
>Dèjì Akómöláfé, MCSE+M MCSA+M MCP+I
>Microsoft MVP - Directory Services
>www.readymaids.com - we know IT
>www.akomolafe.com
>Do you now realize that Today is the Tomorrow you were worried about
>Yesterday? -anon
>
>________________________________
>
>From: ActiveDir-owner@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx on behalf of Sakari Kouti
>Sent: Wed 9/14/2005 11:46 AM
>To: ActiveDir@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
>Subject: RE: [ActiveDir] SBS Server Question
>
>
>
>Hi Jose,
>
>No, an SBS domain cannot have trusts, so it cannot be a child domain.
>
>And yes, after you have installed an SBS box, you can install additional
DCs,
>if they are normal Windows Server 2003 boxes.
>
>Yours, Sakari
>
>
>
>
>>-----Original Message-----
>>From: ActiveDir-owner@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
>>[mailto:ActiveDir-owner@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of
>>Medeiros, Jose
>>Sent: Wednesday, September 14, 2005 8:47 PM
>>To: ActiveDir@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
>>Subject: [ActiveDir] SBS Server Question
>>
>>Hi Susan,
>>
>>Since we have an SBS MVP on the Active Dir list, let me ask a
>>question.
>>
>>Can I now make an SBS 2003 server a child domain in an AD
>>2003 forest?
>>
>>Before you ask why, some one asked me this recently at a
>>Linux users group meeting, as his company has several remote
>>offices using SBS 2003.
>>
>>Also on SBS 4.5, one could have a BDC as a backup, can this
>>also be done with a DC or are you " Sh.T out of luck " when a
>>box fails?
>>
>>Jose
>>
>>
>>List info : http://www.activedir.org/List.aspx
>>List FAQ : http://www.activedir.org/ListFAQ.aspx
>>List archive:
>>http://www.mail-archive.com/activedir%40mail.activedir.org/
>>
>>
>>
>List info : http://www.activedir.org/List.aspx
>List FAQ : http://www.activedir.org/ListFAQ.aspx
>List archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/activedir%40mail.activedir.org/
>
>
>List info : http://www.activedir.org/List.aspx
>List FAQ : http://www.activedir.org/ListFAQ.aspx
>List archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/activedir%40mail.activedir.org/
>
>
>

--
Letting your vendors set your risk analysis these days?
http://www.threatcode.com

List info : http://www.activedir.org/List.aspx
List FAQ : http://www.activedir.org/ListFAQ.aspx
List archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/activedir%40mail.activedir.org/
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sbradcpaUser is Offline

Posts:496

09/14/2005 9:02 AM  
SBS 2003 that's shut down Server every hour on the hour with a SBcore
issue and PSS has had to guide a couple into reinstalling.
Costin posted and boasted in the newsgroups about that hack but where is
he when someone follows that and screws up their network.
Microsoft is there picking up the pieces of that screwed up network, not
Costin.
Then have Costin put it on his web site. Having it on a fellow MVP site
means I can wack you upside the head. Daniel [also a MVP] took his down
because we said how dangerous that was.
You hosting it on your site, you posting it, you are giving it value.

You truly advocate violating EULAs to customers as well? The EULA of
SBS clearly states no trusts. Whether technically it can be done in SBS
2000 [whereas in 2003 you really make a mess] is irrelevant. It
violates the Eula. 'nuff said.
I'm sorry Deji but the writer can post it [and has done so] in
newsgroups, but you are validating that hack by hosting that on your site.
You mess with my SBS boxes and my community, you get my 2x4 and Dew
upside the head. You know me well enough regarding that. I'm Mama bear
around SBSland.

deji@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx wrote:
OK, Susan. Dew time :)

"Should" and "Can" are not interchangeable, that's my opinion. When I explain
technical feasibilities to customers, I try not to hide the relevant
distinction.

BTW, I think the writer made it sufficiently clear that the procedure is a
"hack".
Sincerely,

Dèjì Akómöláfé, MCSE+M MCSA+M MCP+I
Microsoft MVP - Directory Services
www.readymaids.com - we know IT
www.akomolafe.com
Do you now realize that Today is the Tomorrow you were worried about
Yesterday? -anon

________________________________

From: ActiveDir-owner@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx on behalf of Susan Bradley, CPA aka
Ebitz - SBS Rocks [MVP]
Sent: Wed 9/14/2005 1:00 PM
To: ActiveDir@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: Re: [ActiveDir] SBS Server Question

Just so you know ...we asked another MVP to take that unsupported hack
off of their site.

When you say pain... we've heard/we know the pain..the only way to
recover from that mess is to flatten and reinstall. PSS has seen the
mess that hack can cause.

As an MVP I'm an independent voice ...but I refuse to support harming
customers and especially the AD glue like that.

That's a very dangerous hack and one that can cause real damage and real
pain in SBS 2003. You do that one, and you get no support and no MVP
guidance. I refuse to endanger SBS boxes like that.

deji@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx wrote:


Actually, depending on your level of tolerance for pains, I know that you
can.

http://www.akomolafe.com/Portals/1/Creating%20a%20trust%20relationship%20bet

w

een%20two%20Small%20Business%20Server%202000%20domains.htm
Sincerely,

Dèjì Akómöláfé, MCSE+M MCSA+M MCP+I
Microsoft MVP - Directory Services
www.readymaids.com - we know IT
www.akomolafe.com
Do you now realize that Today is the Tomorrow you were worried about
Yesterday? -anon

________________________________

From: ActiveDir-owner@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx on behalf of Sakari Kouti
Sent: Wed 9/14/2005 11:46 AM
To: ActiveDir@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: RE: [ActiveDir] SBS Server Question

Hi Jose,

No, an SBS domain cannot have trusts, so it cannot be a child domain.

And yes, after you have installed an SBS box, you can install additional

DCs,

if they are normal Windows Server 2003 boxes.

Yours, Sakari



-----Original Message-----
From: ActiveDir-owner@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
[mailto:ActiveDir-owner@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of
Medeiros, Jose
Sent: Wednesday, September 14, 2005 8:47 PM
To: ActiveDir@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: [ActiveDir] SBS Server Question

Hi Susan,

Since we have an SBS MVP on the Active Dir list, let me ask a
question.

Can I now make an SBS 2003 server a child domain in an AD
2003 forest?

Before you ask why, some one asked me this recently at a
Linux users group meeting, as his company has several remote
offices using SBS 2003.

Also on SBS 4.5, one could have a BDC as a backup, can this
also be done with a DC or are you " Sh.T out of luck " when a
box fails?

Jose
List info : http://www.activedir.org/List.aspx
List FAQ : http://www.activedir.org/ListFAQ.aspx
List archive:
http://www.mail-archive.com/activedir%40mail.activedir.org/




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--
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http://www.threatcode.com
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--
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http://www.threatcode.com
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dejiUser is Offline

Posts:262

09/15/2005 1:51 AM  
Who said you could talk? :)

Honestly, my position on all this is very simple. I was a tech and have been
hacking solutions a long time before I became an MVP. I will always be a
techie first.

It is MS' responsibility to enforce its EULA, and they have enough resources
to do just that. IF I make a categorical statement to a client that something
could NOT be done, and the client finds out that it can (but should not) be
done, I lose credibility. Whatever I tell them from then on will be taken
with reservations. I am a tech first, then an MVP.

I respect EULA, but the techie in me is more interested in toying with
things. There have been many, many instances when MS has told us that things
couldn't be done, where we techies have gone out to do it, and where MS has
ended up backtracking and incorporating the product of our curiosity into the
mainstream. We chalked it all down to product feedback and improvement. "F6"
to load in unsupported drivers was considered an unsupported hack back in 96
or so. HAL switching in system image was (is?) considered a hack and
unsupported. I can't tell you how many ways we had to hack SBS 4.0 back in 97
just so things can work on, say, a system that had no modem. Many of the
things we did went into SBS4.5, although many of them were previously
"unsupported".

Things can be done - it all depends on your patience, persistence and
resourcefulness. Kids have been putting fingers in the fire for a long time -
and kids will continue to do so till eternity - regardless of how often
people warn them about the danger.

The information is publicly out there (with sufficient caveats about EULA
violations, supportability issues, and burning toasters) and, in my very
humble opinion, if MS really doesn't want to see this done, they have access
to the source code and have had plenty of time to kill the hack (QFEs, SPs,
killbits, whatever) such that the process can not even be attempted. Or
better still, maybe they can put a fix in so that the hack does not cause
havocs.

I'm done as far as this topic is concerned now.


Sincerely,

Dèjì Akómöláfé, MCSE+M MCSA+M MCP+I
Microsoft MVP - Directory Services
www.readymaids.com - we know IT
www.akomolafe.com
Do you now realize that Today is the Tomorrow you were worried about
Yesterday? -anon

________________________________

From: ActiveDir-owner@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx on behalf of Roger Seielstad
Sent: Wed 9/14/2005 5:29 PM
To: ActiveDir@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: RE: [ActiveDir] SBS Server Question

Yeah, but his MVP is in MSDS (as in Dining Services). We've got pictures to
prove it
--------
Roger Seielstad
E-mail Geek
-----Original Message-----
From: ActiveDir-owner@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
[mailto:ActiveDir-owner@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Susan Bradley, CPA
aka Ebitz - SBS Rocks [MVP]
Sent: Wednesday, September 14, 2005 12:52 PM
To: ActiveDir@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: Re: [ActiveDir] SBS Server Question

EULA dear.

There's Can and there is legal.

No you can't and be legal... and for a MVP shame on you ;-)

deji@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx wrote:

>Actually, depending on your level of tolerance for pains, I know that
>you can.
>
>http://www.akomolafe.com/Portals/1/Creating%20a%20trust%20relationship%
>20betw een%20two%20Small%20Business%20Server%202000%20domains.htm
>
>
>Sincerely,
>
>Dèjì Akómöláfé, MCSE+M MCSA+M MCP+I
>Microsoft MVP - Directory Services
>www.readymaids.com - we know IT
>www.akomolafe.com
>Do you now realize that Today is the Tomorrow you were worried about
>Yesterday? -anon
>
>________________________________
>
>From: ActiveDir-owner@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx on behalf of Sakari Kouti
>Sent: Wed 9/14/2005 11:46 AM
>To: ActiveDir@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
>Subject: RE: [ActiveDir] SBS Server Question
>
>
>
>Hi Jose,
>
>No, an SBS domain cannot have trusts, so it cannot be a child domain.
>
>And yes, after you have installed an SBS box, you can install
>additional DCs, if they are normal Windows Server 2003 boxes.
>
>Yours, Sakari
>
>
>
>
>>-----Original Message-----
>>From: ActiveDir-owner@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
>>[mailto:ActiveDir-owner@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Medeiros,
>>Jose
>>Sent: Wednesday, September 14, 2005 8:47 PM
>>To: ActiveDir@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
>>Subject: [ActiveDir] SBS Server Question
>>
>>Hi Susan,
>>
>>Since we have an SBS MVP on the Active Dir list, let me ask a
>>question.
>>
>>Can I now make an SBS 2003 server a child domain in an AD
>>2003 forest?
>>
>>Before you ask why, some one asked me this recently at a Linux users
>>group meeting, as his company has several remote offices using SBS
>>2003.
>>
>>Also on SBS 4.5, one could have a BDC as a backup, can this also be
>>done with a DC or are you " Sh.T out of luck " when a box fails?
>>
>>Jose
>>
>>
>>List info : http://www.activedir.org/List.aspx
>>List FAQ : http://www.activedir.org/ListFAQ.aspx
>>List archive:
>>http://www.mail-archive.com/activedir%40mail.activedir.org/
>>
>>
>>
>List info : http://www.activedir.org/List.aspx
>List FAQ : http://www.activedir.org/ListFAQ.aspx
>List archive:
>http://www.mail-archive.com/activedir%40mail.activedir.org/
>
>
>List info : http://www.activedir.org/List.aspx
>List FAQ : http://www.activedir.org/ListFAQ.aspx
>List archive:
>http://www.mail-archive.com/activedir%40mail.activedir.org/
>
>
>

--
Letting your vendors set your risk analysis these days?
http://www.threatcode.com

List info : http://www.activedir.org/List.aspx
List FAQ : http://www.activedir.org/ListFAQ.aspx
List archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/activedir%40mail.activedir.org/

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sbradcpaUser is Offline

Posts:496

09/15/2005 2:04 AM  
It's blocked on 2k3. You do this on a 2k3 box and in 7 days you'll be
rebooting every hour on the hour.
Truly there have been about three SBS 2k3 boxes that I know of that have
had to be flattened due to this.
The MVPs that the original poster was posting about was me in the
newsgroups.
And I'm a customer first and foremost who wants to make sure when you
the Tech leaves and I hire a new one that the box is left in a legal and
supported position.
Tech or no tech, we all have a responsibility to the customer. Bottom
line that is unsupported and does put them in an illegal position.
deji@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx wrote:
Who said you could talk? :)

Honestly, my position on all this is very simple. I was a tech and have been
hacking solutions a long time before I became an MVP. I will always be a
techie first.

It is MS' responsibility to enforce its EULA, and they have enough resources
to do just that. IF I make a categorical statement to a client that something
could NOT be done, and the client finds out that it can (but should not) be
done, I lose credibility. Whatever I tell them from then on will be taken
with reservations. I am a tech first, then an MVP.

I respect EULA, but the techie in me is more interested in toying with
things. There have been many, many instances when MS has told us that things
couldn't be done, where we techies have gone out to do it, and where MS has
ended up backtracking and incorporating the product of our curiosity into the
mainstream. We chalked it all down to product feedback and improvement. "F6"
to load in unsupported drivers was considered an unsupported hack back in 96
or so. HAL switching in system image was (is?) considered a hack and
unsupported. I can't tell you how many ways we had to hack SBS 4.0 back in 97
just so things can work on, say, a system that had no modem. Many of the
things we did went into SBS4.5, although many of them were previously
"unsupported".

Things can be done - it all depends on your patience, persistence and
resourcefulness. Kids have been putting fingers in the fire for a long time -
and kids will continue to do so till eternity - regardless of how often
people warn them about the danger.

The information is publicly out there (with sufficient caveats about EULA
violations, supportability issues, and burning toasters) and, in my very
humble opinion, if MS really doesn't want to see this done, they have access
to the source code and have had plenty of time to kill the hack (QFEs, SPs,
killbits, whatever) such that the process can not even be attempted. Or
better still, maybe they can put a fix in so that the hack does not cause
havocs.

I'm done as far as this topic is concerned now.
Sincerely,

Dèjì Akómöláfé, MCSE+M MCSA+M MCP+I
Microsoft MVP - Directory Services
www.readymaids.com - we know IT
www.akomolafe.com
Do you now realize that Today is the Tomorrow you were worried about
Yesterday? -anon

________________________________

From: ActiveDir-owner@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx on behalf of Roger Seielstad
Sent: Wed 9/14/2005 5:29 PM
To: ActiveDir@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: RE: [ActiveDir] SBS Server Question

Yeah, but his MVP is in MSDS (as in Dining Services). We've got pictures to
prove it
--------
Roger Seielstad
E-mail Geek
-----Original Message-----
From: ActiveDir-owner@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
[mailto:ActiveDir-owner@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Susan Bradley, CPA
aka Ebitz - SBS Rocks [MVP]
Sent: Wednesday, September 14, 2005 12:52 PM
To: ActiveDir@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: Re: [ActiveDir] SBS Server Question

EULA dear.

There's Can and there is legal.

No you can't and be legal... and for a MVP shame on you ;-)

deji@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx wrote:


Actually, depending on your level of tolerance for pains, I know that
you can.

http://www.akomolafe.com/Portals/1/Creating%20a%20trust%20relationship%
20betw een%20two%20Small%20Business%20Server%202000%20domains.htm
Sincerely,

Dèjì Akómöláfé, MCSE+M MCSA+M MCP+I
Microsoft MVP - Directory Services
www.readymaids.com - we know IT
www.akomolafe.com
Do you now realize that Today is the Tomorrow you were worried about
Yesterday? -anon

________________________________

From: ActiveDir-owner@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx on behalf of Sakari Kouti
Sent: Wed 9/14/2005 11:46 AM
To: ActiveDir@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: RE: [ActiveDir] SBS Server Question

Hi Jose,

No, an SBS domain cannot have trusts, so it cannot be a child domain.

And yes, after you have installed an SBS box, you can install
additional DCs, if they are normal Windows Server 2003 boxes.

Yours, Sakari



-----Original Message-----
From: ActiveDir-owner@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
[mailto:ActiveDir-owner@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Medeiros,
Jose
Sent: Wednesday, September 14, 2005 8:47 PM
To: ActiveDir@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: [ActiveDir] SBS Server Question

Hi Susan,

Since we have an SBS MVP on the Active Dir list, let me ask a
question.

Can I now make an SBS 2003 server a child domain in an AD
2003 forest?

Before you ask why, some one asked me this recently at a Linux users
group meeting, as his company has several remote offices using SBS
2003.

Also on SBS 4.5, one could have a BDC as a backup, can this also be
done with a DC or are you " Sh.T out of luck " when a box fails?

Jose
List info : http://www.activedir.org/List.aspx
List FAQ : http://www.activedir.org/ListFAQ.aspx
List archive:
http://www.mail-archive.com/activedir%40mail.activedir.org/




List info : http://www.activedir.org/List.aspx
List FAQ : http://www.activedir.org/ListFAQ.aspx
List archive:
http://www.mail-archive.com/activedir%40mail.activedir.org/
List info : http://www.activedir.org/List.aspx
List FAQ : http://www.activedir.org/ListFAQ.aspx
List archive:
http://www.mail-archive.com/activedir%40mail.activedir.org/



--
Letting your vendors set your risk analysis these days?
http://www.threatcode.com
List info : http://www.activedir.org/List.aspx
List FAQ : http://www.activedir.org/ListFAQ.aspx
List archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/activedir%40mail.activedir.org/

List info : http://www.activedir.org/List.aspx
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--
Letting your vendors set your risk analysis these days?
http://www.threatcode.com
List info : http://www.activedir.org/List.aspx
List FAQ : http://www.activedir.org/ListFAQ.aspx
List archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/activedir%40mail.activedir.org/
sbradcpaUser is Offline

Posts:496

09/15/2005 2:18 AM  
Hey if I post some stupid AD icky thing like 'oh set your server time
back to 11/23 and install your DC' feel free to flame me how stupid that
one is.
[long story.. Sharepoint issue...and yes that's the stupid thing I
posted once upon a time]
Susan Bradley, CPA aka Ebitz - SBS Rocks [MVP] wrote:

It's blocked on 2k3. You do this on a 2k3 box and in 7 days you'll be
rebooting every hour on the hour.
Truly there have been about three SBS 2k3 boxes that I know of that
have had to be flattened due to this.
The MVPs that the original poster was posting about was me in the
newsgroups.
And I'm a customer first and foremost who wants to make sure when you
the Tech leaves and I hire a new one that the box is left in a legal
and supported position.
Tech or no tech, we all have a responsibility to the customer. Bottom
line that is unsupported and does put them in an illegal position.
deji@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx wrote:
Who said you could talk? :)

Honestly, my position on all this is very simple. I was a tech and
have been

hacking solutions a long time before I became an MVP. I will always be a
techie first.

It is MS' responsibility to enforce its EULA, and they have enough
resources
to do just that. IF I make a categorical statement to a client that
something
could NOT be done, and the client finds out that it can (but should
not) be
done, I lose credibility. Whatever I tell them from then on will be
taken

with reservations. I am a tech first, then an MVP.

I respect EULA, but the techie in me is more interested in toying with
things. There have been many, many instances when MS has told us that
things
couldn't be done, where we techies have gone out to do it, and where
MS has
ended up backtracking and incorporating the product of our curiosity
into the
mainstream. We chalked it all down to product feedback and
improvement. "F6"
to load in unsupported drivers was considered an unsupported hack
back in 96

or so. HAL switching in system image was (is?) considered a hack and
unsupported. I can't tell you how many ways we had to hack SBS 4.0
back in 97

just so things can work on, say, a system that had no modem. Many of the
things we did went into SBS4.5, although many of them were previously
"unsupported".

Things can be done - it all depends on your patience, persistence and
resourcefulness. Kids have been putting fingers in the fire for a
long time -

and kids will continue to do so till eternity - regardless of how often
people warn them about the danger.

The information is publicly out there (with sufficient caveats about
EULA

violations, supportability issues, and burning toasters) and, in my very
humble opinion, if MS really doesn't want to see this done, they have
access
to the source code and have had plenty of time to kill the hack
(QFEs, SPs,

killbits, whatever) such that the process can not even be attempted. Or
better still, maybe they can put a fix in so that the hack does not
cause

havocs.

I'm done as far as this topic is concerned now.
Sincerely,

Dèjì Akómöláfé, MCSE+M MCSA+M MCP+I
Microsoft MVP - Directory Services
www.readymaids.com - we know IT
www.akomolafe.com
Do you now realize that Today is the Tomorrow you were worried about
Yesterday? -anon

________________________________

From: ActiveDir-owner@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx on behalf of Roger Seielstad
Sent: Wed 9/14/2005 5:29 PM
To: ActiveDir@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: RE: [ActiveDir] SBS Server Question

Yeah, but his MVP is in MSDS (as in Dining Services). We've got
pictures to

prove it
--------
Roger Seielstad
E-mail Geek
-----Original Message-----
From: ActiveDir-owner@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
[mailto:ActiveDir-owner@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Susan
Bradley, CPA

aka Ebitz - SBS Rocks [MVP]
Sent: Wednesday, September 14, 2005 12:52 PM
To: ActiveDir@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: Re: [ActiveDir] SBS Server Question

EULA dear.

There's Can and there is legal.

No you can't and be legal... and for a MVP shame on you ;-)

deji@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx wrote:


Actually, depending on your level of tolerance for pains, I know that
you can.

http://www.akomolafe.com/Portals/1/Creating%20a%20trust%20relationship%
20betw een%20two%20Small%20Business%20Server%202000%20domains.htm
Sincerely,

Dèjì Akómöláfé, MCSE+M MCSA+M MCP+I
Microsoft MVP - Directory Services
www.readymaids.com - we know IT
www.akomolafe.com
Do you now realize that Today is the Tomorrow you were worried about
Yesterday? -anon

________________________________

From: ActiveDir-owner@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx on behalf of Sakari Kouti
Sent: Wed 9/14/2005 11:46 AM
To: ActiveDir@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: RE: [ActiveDir] SBS Server Question

Hi Jose,

No, an SBS domain cannot have trusts, so it cannot be a child domain.

And yes, after you have installed an SBS box, you can install
additional DCs, if they are normal Windows Server 2003 boxes.

Yours, Sakari



-----Original Message-----
From: ActiveDir-owner@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
[mailto:ActiveDir-owner@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Medeiros,
Jose
Sent: Wednesday, September 14, 2005 8:47 PM
To: ActiveDir@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: [ActiveDir] SBS Server Question

Hi Susan,

Since we have an SBS MVP on the Active Dir list, let me ask a
question.

Can I now make an SBS 2003 server a child domain in an AD
2003 forest?

Before you ask why, some one asked me this recently at a Linux users
group meeting, as his company has several remote offices using SBS
2003.

Also on SBS 4.5, one could have a BDC as a backup, can this also be
done with a DC or are you " Sh.T out of luck " when a box fails?

Jose
List info : http://www.activedir.org/List.aspx
List FAQ : http://www.activedir.org/ListFAQ.aspx
List archive:
http://www.mail-archive.com/activedir%40mail.activedir.org/




List info : http://www.activedir.org/List.aspx
List FAQ : http://www.activedir.org/ListFAQ.aspx
List archive:
http://www.mail-archive.com/activedir%40mail.activedir.org/
List info : http://www.activedir.org/List.aspx
List FAQ : http://www.activedir.org/ListFAQ.aspx
List archive:
http://www.mail-archive.com/activedir%40mail.activedir.org/



--
Letting your vendors set your risk analysis these days?
http://www.threatcode.com
List info : http://www.activedir.org/List.aspx
List FAQ : http://www.activedir.org/ListFAQ.aspx
List archive:
http://www.mail-archive.com/activedir%40mail.activedir.org/
List info : http://www.activedir.org/List.aspx
List FAQ : http://www.activedir.org/ListFAQ.aspx
List archive:
http://www.mail-archive.com/activedir%40mail.activedir.org/

List info : http://www.activedir.org/List.aspx
List FAQ : http://www.activedir.org/ListFAQ.aspx
List archive:
http://www.mail-archive.com/activedir%40mail.activedir.org/


--
Letting your vendors set your risk analysis these days?
http://www.threatcode.com
List info : http://www.activedir.org/List.aspx
List FAQ : http://www.activedir.org/ListFAQ.aspx
List archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/activedir%40mail.activedir.org/
AD00000900User is Offline

Posts:0

09/15/2005 12:29 PM  
Yeah, but his MVP is in MSDS (as in Dining Services). We've got pictures to
prove it
--------
Roger Seielstad
E-mail Geek
-----Original Message-----
From: ActiveDir-owner@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
[mailto:ActiveDir-owner@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Susan Bradley, CPA
aka Ebitz - SBS Rocks [MVP]
Sent: Wednesday, September 14, 2005 12:52 PM
To: ActiveDir@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: Re: [ActiveDir] SBS Server Question

EULA dear.

There's Can and there is legal.

No you can't and be legal... and for a MVP shame on you ;-)

deji@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx wrote:

>Actually, depending on your level of tolerance for pains, I know that
>you can.
>
>http://www.akomolafe.com/Portals/1/Creating%20a%20trust%20relationship%
>20betw een%20two%20Small%20Business%20Server%202000%20domains.htm
>
>
>Sincerely,
>
>Dèjì Akómöláfé, MCSE+M MCSA+M MCP+I
>Microsoft MVP - Directory Services
>www.readymaids.com - we know IT
>www.akomolafe.com
>Do you now realize that Today is the Tomorrow you were worried about
>Yesterday? -anon
>
>________________________________
>
>From: ActiveDir-owner@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx on behalf of Sakari Kouti
>Sent: Wed 9/14/2005 11:46 AM
>To: ActiveDir@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
>Subject: RE: [ActiveDir] SBS Server Question
>
>
>
>Hi Jose,
>
>No, an SBS domain cannot have trusts, so it cannot be a child domain.
>
>And yes, after you have installed an SBS box, you can install
>additional DCs, if they are normal Windows Server 2003 boxes.
>
>Yours, Sakari
>
>
>
>
>>-----Original Message-----
>>From: ActiveDir-owner@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
>>[mailto:ActiveDir-owner@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Medeiros,
>>Jose
>>Sent: Wednesday, September 14, 2005 8:47 PM
>>To: ActiveDir@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
>>Subject: [ActiveDir] SBS Server Question
>>
>>Hi Susan,
>>
>>Since we have an SBS MVP on the Active Dir list, let me ask a
>>question.
>>
>>Can I now make an SBS 2003 server a child domain in an AD
>>2003 forest?
>>
>>Before you ask why, some one asked me this recently at a Linux users
>>group meeting, as his company has several remote offices using SBS
>>2003.
>>
>>Also on SBS 4.5, one could have a BDC as a backup, can this also be
>>done with a DC or are you " Sh.T out of luck " when a box fails?
>>
>>Jose
>>
>>
>>List info : http://www.activedir.org/List.aspx
>>List FAQ : http://www.activedir.org/ListFAQ.aspx
>>List archive:
>>http://www.mail-archive.com/activedir%40mail.activedir.org/
>>
>>
>>
>List info : http://www.activedir.org/List.aspx
>List FAQ : http://www.activedir.org/ListFAQ.aspx
>List archive:
>http://www.mail-archive.com/activedir%40mail.activedir.org/
>
>
>List info : http://www.activedir.org/List.aspx
>List FAQ : http://www.activedir.org/ListFAQ.aspx
>List archive:
>http://www.mail-archive.com/activedir%40mail.activedir.org/
>
>
>

--
Letting your vendors set your risk analysis these days?
http://www.threatcode.com

List info : http://www.activedir.org/List.aspx
List FAQ : http://www.activedir.org/ListFAQ.aspx
List archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/activedir%40mail.activedir.org/

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